RS Worries

[mpeffers]

I pre-ordered a copy of RS and it arrived around the release date. Turns out none of the computers knocking round our house have the Graphics card to handle it, so save for a brief fiddle when I met up with the UKTSLive team at Warley I've yet to actually use it. Having paid in the region of £30 for it and it's constantly depreciating, the development of the simulator over the past few years has been of great interest to me, and to be honest I'm very worried about it's future.

The first thing that struck me was that RS's equivalent to MSTS's Route Editor seems too easy. On face value, this seems like a rather stupid comment, but one of the great things I find with MSTS is that its RE takes a lot of perseverance and patience. This meant that a lot of people's test projects (where people were getting to grips with the RE) and ambitious fictional projects (generally from the younger generations) would never get finished to the state they were considered worth uploading. As a result, the routes that actually made it up to UKTS were in the main of very high quality and realism. Trainz is a good example of the converse of this, where the Surveyor on that has proved so user-friendly that the Download Station has ended up with a handful of very good, well thought out routes flooded with short, fictional routes with random bends, hills and water features making it blatantly obvious the scenery's been built around the tracks - the complete opposite of real life. I worry that RS is leaning a little too far away and, when RS really kicks off, the library will just end up full of made up and poorly thought out routes with very few high quality ones.

On the subject of Trainz, the decision not to include individual models in route files in favour of just referencing them in the config file is one of it's great failings. This has left Trainz dependent on the Download Station which, whilst it has by and large managed to contain copies of all the custom content, is so full it's rendered its search function more or less useless. On top of this, there's always one or two files in many routes that aren't on the Download Station, meaning route authors are always having to reply to queries about the location of missing files - just check the UKTrainz forum for verification of this. As best I can tell (could be wrong on this, like I said I haven't been able to use RS still so...), RS has gone for a similar set up with the route requiring all the models it uses to be already installed to work, avoiding the need for permissions to be sought before uploading. Whilst there's very little scenery available freeware of payware, this is fine because it wont take much searching around to get everything you need. However, once there's more content out there and people depend less and less on default models, the lack of a central site hosting all the content (as Trainz has, as much as I hate having to use it) will make it hard and time consuming to get downloaded routes working.

By far the most worrying thing I've seen however is the sudden obsession with payware. RS can handle much greater detail than MSTS, so modellers have been able to build in a lot more detail into their models. To do this, it takes a lot of time and is much more costly in reference material. The extra detail entices people, so they're willing to pay for it. Large amounts of payware undeniably will be detrimental to RS taking off properly though. Directly it's fine - if you want what's on offer and are willing to fork out then go for it - but if you download something that's then dependent on x and y which both cost £5 a piece and aren't really keen enough to actually pay the £10, then you lose out. For me, a 'rail sim community' involves people pooling their knowledge and skills to produce models, routes, etc for everyone to enjoy. If someone's going to charge for the final product, maybe everyone else should charge them in turn for any reference pictures they provide or advice they give that goes into creation of that piece. That's not a community, that's how businesses market place. In MSTS, I always got the feeling content creators created the locomotives and routes that they did because they wanted to see them in virtual and had the skills to make it happen. Having made them, they shared them with the community out of the kindness of their hearts and I have a lot of respect for that. In the recent RS Payware/Freeware debate in the Screenshots forum, the phrase 'they deserve to be payed for that', or words to that effect, have been thrown around a lot. Someone even likened the situation to the way Hornby will never give out free models. I'd hope that's entirely inappropriate though - if someone asks me to get them a CD, I'd expect them to give me some money to pay for it, but if I had the CD anyway and brought it for myself in the first place, I'd happily lend it to them for free. If those content producers rolling out payware were genuinely not going to produce their models without the demand from the public and could be spending their time and money on other unrelated projects then fair enough, they've got call for asking us to pay for it. Else, as I see it, they're just taking advantage of the current lack of freeware alternatives and it'll ruin Rail Simulator.

Just my two pence worth...

[paulz6]

There are a lot of freeware models available for MSTS. There are also a lot of commercial products available as well.

People seem to be underestimating the number of freeware RS models that are available. There are a lot of freeware steam engines available, and diesel wise we have a 25 and a 35. Compared to the number of payware engines available, the greatest proportion are freeware. There is only one UK commercial route available (IOW), yet we have the freeware Further North, South Devon Banks, Bristol - Sheffield, District Line, WSR ........

Considering the length of time to produce quality content for RS, it will take time to grow the freeware library to the same level of diversity as that of MSTS. Just because someones favourite model is not yet available for free, it does not mean freeware does not exist.

If the people who complain about the 'lack' of freeware spent their energies on adding to the freeware pool, there would be a lot more freeware. Complaining that somebody hasn't produced your favourite model for free is a bit of a cheek if you haven't produced anything for free yourself.

My only gripe on the commercial side is the emergence of these 5 GBP mini-products. Something like the Voyager which costs roughly 15 GBP comes with several coach models, custom sounds, passenger view, cab view and scenarios. 5 GBP for a single wagon or sound pack or hand full of scenarios pack seems a bit expensive in comparison.

[bigvern]

I can vouch that route building in RS is far from easy. Certain features are excellent, like the track laying system which combines the freedom of splined placement from TRS with the ability to specify curved radii. Built in support for DEM data makes terrain a doddle but unlike TRS you can't just overlay a geo-referenced map via Transdem - you need to faff about in Google Earth creating markers for all the key vectors and objects that you need.

3D placement is every bit as time consuming as MSTS. In around 10 days of doing 3D placement on my WCML project I've advanced a grand total of 6 miles between Tebay and Grayrigg Loops and that's largely to MSTS "standards". Terrain texturing is particularly slow as every tile has to be hand painted, there's no ready painted tile squares as per MSTS and no copy/paste function as per TRS, not to mention it is virtually impossible to get a smooth blend between the different texture types. MSTS allowed the use of forest objects to rapidly (and efficiently) cover large areas with dense foliage but no similar feature in RS. However the ability to run out parallel "lofts" has made the process of doing lineside fencing etc. a bit quicker. However once you start laying lofts to follow the terrain it's still a bit hitty/missy whether you suddenly end up with a section sticking up at an angle, making field hedge/wall placement more time consuming than it should be.

I think the fact there are still relatively few RS routes is an indication that it's not that easy and I don't think there's much danger of the kiddies flooding the "market" with inferior routes. However there are a few of us persevering with the tools who, like myself, feel that RS is overall the best way forward for our hobby now that MSTS2 is gone, TRS despite the power of Surveyor continues to lack that certain something which defines a prototype route (try no despatcher and no timetables) and MSTS1 is just, well, old and pretty much past it.

As regards payware, I freely admit that anyone who wishes to use my freeware WCML (assuming it makes it to release stage) is going to need to buy quite a few items to make it work - including but not limited to, the US add-on for UK version (or vv), the IOW route, the Rascal route, 3D Trains trees and sundry items from RSDL. As route builders we have been left with little choice if we wish to populate our work with other than the default items. Until such time as the freeware object (and train) builders step up to the plate and release content to the extent that has been done for MSTS/TRS, I will source the necessary objects where I can. Feel free to curse me but I regard it as a partnership between the freeware and payware developers who mutually support each others efforts. (And don't forget, once you've bought the add-on once you've got it installed for any future projects that utilise its elements). It's a source of ongoing puzzlement that so many objects exist for the other two "big" sims that very few of the classic items created for MSTS/TRS have been converted. Where are the DMDrake or JVC trees? Ian Jenkins buildings? To name just two examples.

The DLS was and still is an excellent idea for Trainz but the big worry these days has to be what on earth would happen if Trainz followed Fury or Auran went belly up. Another slight Achilles heel of RS is that any third party objects need to go in their own developer folder which could, if we did get a sudden influx of freeware items, mean end users having to do lots of individual downloads and installs and the route builder worrying all the time what happens if a prima-donna spits out their dummy as has happened on occasion and withdraws their stuff. OTOH, with MSTS while each route being self supporting it did lead to bloatware with common objects being duplicated in all the routes that referenced them. Maybe the answer is to have a "common" developer source/folder (e.g. UKTS) for freeware content though I can't see most developers agreeing to that.

Whether we are route builders, rolling stock developers or simply end users, ultimately I guess we have to accept that RS has its own "third-way" of doing everything which is quite different to the other two big sims.

[longbow]

Easy to use, out of the box content creation tools are absolutely fundamental to the success of any rail sim. They encourage both quality and quantity. If they enable the less competent to make product, that's fine; even if you don't value what they produce, today's novices are tomorrow's experts, and better they get to start somewhere than to give up in frustration.

In itself, more payware is surely a very good thing - the more content the better. If you are thinking that with less payware there would be more freeware, I think you are mistaken - there would merely be fewer talented modellers prepared to invest the time and effort.

[smarty2]

Interesting thread, i think there are valid points been made by all the contributors so far, i must say though i am liking 3d trains approach by including a low res versions for free, and definitely think all the commercial developers should introduce this strategy as it would be key to the success of RS imo. It is something DT appear to be leaning towards partially.
As far as people who are making say scenarios with lots of dependancies they should always consider those that may be starting out in our hobby and should supply a "default" version with their creations if possible, and it is here i thank pioneers like Mike Simpson for his wonderful suite of utilities which has made things more accessible and fixable in RS than RS has done (no offence RS) i am concerned about the price of some addons however as has been well stated by Paul, i see some stuff in the pipeline for single assets costing £11! I think it is too much and i wont be paying through the nose for stuff i do not think is good value no matter what the credentials, as an opposite i think Richard Armstrongs stuff is very reasonably priced in comparison £3 for a sound set has given a lot of ooomph to my experience with the sim and has made it more an involving experience. I am not so gloomy in my outlook for RS, as Vern intimates there aren't any really serious contenders are there now?

Regards

Mart

[RSderek]

I've yet to actually use it

So many worries and you've yet to use it?

Derek

[decapod]

I have had my doubts about RS for a long time (probably since Tim and I visited the Kuju offices) I've had the software for 6 months and unfortunately most of them are still there.
From the modellers perspective it's really not difficult to get things into the sim but the graphics engine has a few quirks, shadows can be difficult (and don't work if they are large), lighting doesn't look quite right, animation is "lumpy", translucency not sorted - it's fiddly.
It looks like several of the RS freeware modellers have already slowed down production.

I'm all for the common freeware folder idea but I'm not sure how it helps unless UKTS compile it all into a single download or CD.

I can't comment too much on route building, but my experience so far has been positive, the DEM load worked well and the track laying was OK.

I'm going to try and export a few old MSTS models with little change to see how they run as a way of getting more into the sim but unless RS2 is a big improvement I think I may be back to flight simming this autumn.

[CaptainBazza]

Relax Derek, Mike is talking in general terms and not just about RS and has made some very good points.

Cheers Bazza

[RSderek]

Don't be worried about RS.
RW's is the start of something beautiful.


regards

Derek

[decapod]

Arthur C Clarke was a year out with his prediction in 2010:

David Bowman: You see, something's going to happen. You must leave.
Dr. Heywood Floyd: What? What's gonna happen?
David Bowman: Something wonderful

(that or RW will be delayed by 6 months )

[Acorncomputer]

Don't be worried about RS.
RW's is the start of something beautiful.


regards

Derek

The Kent countryside is quite beautiful -





No need to worry about Rail Simulator, it just takes time.

[jbilton]

Hi
Fingers crossed for 'something wonderful'.... the Train Simulating world in general needs it.
Generally its flagging, with less and less interest shown by the week.
Still getting lots of new users of MSTS, based on the same old questions being reposted in the forums, but the future of the hobby is not bright at the moment.
Cheers
Jon

[karma99]

I'm pleased we've moved thefreeware/payware debate out of the Screenshot thread, so I'll repost my post from there.

This came about after a guy who started creating (and showing pics of) an already existing model was told, a) stop wasting your time with things that already exist, and b) you have the skills so you must charge money for your models.

Frankly this blew me sideways, I know the internet is a haven for hatred and bile, but berating someone for providing something for FREE?

Anyway, my response to the payware = greedy, freeware = idiots, debate

Perhaps it's not all about greed and a "gimme gimme" attitude.
Honestly I think the whole "I want money for my models" to be just as greedy an attitude. Rail sims have mostly been akin to a community project up to this point. Some people write engine files, others build routes, others make locos, others reskin, others write scenrios, etc etc.
When all bought together the whole thing is a giant community effort, almost a sharing of skills to make a greater "whole" for us all.

RS seems to have killed this to a certain extent. Now it is like Hornby. You buy what you want and have your own layout based on how much you're willing/able to spend.
I also have a hard time understanding the current attitude of "it takes 5 times longer to make a loco than before so now I need to charge money for it". Did the previous authors who made lots of models sell them in packs of 5? Not really. So what's the difference now? Same time to make, same effort, and if anything a pack of 5 models sounds like a much nicer purchase than 1 model, yet all those MSTS models are out there for free.

I worry about the whole hobby at the moment after a conversation with a well respected modeller (who requested I not name them) who actually felt they now had to charge money for models just because everyone else was. And as that didn't sit well with them, guess what, no more models from them.
Now we come here and people are being berated for a) making freeware of payware that already exists, and b) being effectively called stupid for giving it away anyway.
I've fought tooth and nail in arguements for RS when it's shortcomings have been discussed over and over and I truly believe it's a great sim (and with RS2:RW will get even better), but right now I see it's biggest deficiency as the items being produced are by a group of sellers for a group of customers. MSTS is a community of hobbyists..
I'm actually saddened that this forum doesn't feel like that very often. It feels like eBay for virtual trains.

[mpeffers]

I've yet to actually use it

So many worries and you've yet to use it?

Derek

Hence the point of this thread. If I'd got stuck in, I'd have a better idea of how things worked and could form a proper opinion. At the moment, those are casual observations from what I've seen on the forums. I'm happy for people to dispel them.

Actually since you're here Derek, what's the deal with RailWorks? There's now enough people around to help new developers get things exported into RS correctly and fix a few bugs that have arisen in other areas (the point blades on the Spa Valley Railway not forming properly springs to mind, owing to different gradients being used on the various tracks), so providing people don't start charging for their advice too, we should be seeing more content creators coming onto the scene. I get the feeling people are starting to get comfortable with the current sim... and you're releasing another one. As I see it, it'll either be durastically different (in which case no-one'll know how anything works any more) or very similar (in which case you could quite easily produce a patch with the improvements and release the new routes and stock in a payware pack). I can recall being told things from RS1 would work on RS2 and that existing RS1 users wouldn't have to pay the full price, but will it work the other way too - will freeware stock made for RS2 (but without features built in that'll prevent it from working with RS1) work on RS1, or am I going to forced to fork out extra money for a new version every 3 years.

[growler37]

Hi
Fingers crossed for 'something wonderful'.... the Train Simulating world in general needs it.
Generally its flagging, with less and less interest shown by the week.
Still getting lots of new users of MSTS, based on the same old questions being reposted in the forums, but the future of the hobby is not bright at the moment.
Cheers
Jon

Hi
I cant vouch for MSTS because i dont use anymore,but RS is looking as healthy as it has ever been, new products being produced some great freeware routes on here to download,more in the pipeline,RW just around the corner,what more could you ask for!
I must assure the creator of this thread,that there are no easy routes,the RS editor is easier to use yes, but the time and effort is huge,and any route produced fictional or factual deserves the highest praise because someone has stuck with it,put in the time, and uploaded it to sites like this for people like you and me to enjoy.
i have said before it took me 14 months to build the West Somerset Route for RS,thats a lot of man hours,so the effort with the rs editor is probably more than with the old MSTS route builder,but the end result is much much better IMHO,the RS editor has given the ability of almost anyone to be able to create a route,if they put the effort in,this is fantastic for the hobby.
Finally i must say in order to see what RS and soon RW has to offer you must run it and try it for yourself, then you can base your views on first hand information.
With Kind Regards
Kevin