ex-LNER A3s on the Settle - Carlisle in the 50s

[USRailFan]

From what I've understood, the ex-LNER A3s were moved to the Settle - Carlisle line in the 1950s, after being displaced from the ECML by diesels.

1. What trains did they operate over the S&C?
2. What rolling stock would be used? Ex-LMS cars? Gresleys? MkIs?
3. What would a typical train composition and schedule be?

[lenfish]

Hi,

I can remember them operating the Thames-Clyde Express from Leeds-Glasgow in the late fifties (previously hauled by a Royal Scot class). As for train formation/timetable, the memory of the then 9/10 year old Len is not that good!

Len

[ronald parkin]

Hi, It don't say that here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LNER_Class_A3
But I could be wrong.

Regards

Ron P

[spartacus]

Yes, Leeds Holbeck got a few as some of the larger diesels were introduced to the ECML, although it wasn't just Holbeck ones that worked over the S&C as ones were borrowed to or from other local sheds as required.

I'm sure they must have worked over the line for a few years since I've seen quite a few shots of the, both with and without smoke deflectors.

[mikesimpson]

The A3s were still pulling express passenger trains on the ECML until around 1962, and I remember some being at Tweedmouth sheds where they awaited the diesels breaking down and were sent out to recover them

[mattvince]

According to the commentary in "Great Railway Photographs by Eric Treacy", six Gresley A3s were moved from the Tyneside area to Leeds Holbeck depot in 1960 for S&C use. Ex-LNER Pacifics also reached Carlisle via the Waverley Route - either Gresley A3s or Peppercorn A1s.

[davidaward]

There was a few commonly seen in the 1960s on express trains along the S&C. Sometimes on fitted freights too. Any look at one of the many photographic survey type books depicting the 1960s end of steam era in the area tends to feature quite a few A3s. They all seemed to be non-corridor tender versions.

[CLIFFB]

Yeah, those A3s sure shook up us young trainspotters at Skipton when they suddenly appeared on the few expresses That was 1960 or possibly late 1959, according to my spotters notes. Prior to that the six Royal Scots and three Britannias from Leeds Holbeck mpd (55A) dominated the expresses, except for an occasional Jubilee or, horror of horrors, a Black 5 or two on them! The MSTS Skipton to Carlisle 1920 route, with the signalling modernisation adddition, is perfect for re-creating that era as so little had changed from the 1920's in terms of infrastructure, branch lines, large freight yards etc.

To answer USRailFan's questions:

1) The A3's operated on all the expresses and semi-fasts. Those were 'The Thames-Clyde Express' (St.Pancras-Glasgow St.Enoch, non-stop Leeds-Carlisle), 'The Waverley' express (St.Pancras-Carlisle-Edinburgh) and a Leeds-Glasgow semi-fast; all with return legs, of course. Busy days would see relief trains for some of these, with anything on the head from a Black 5 to an A3. A3s would occasionally work fast freights or parcels trains as well, as balancing workings to or from Holbeck, where they were based.

2) The carriages were all maroon by then; always modern Mk 1's I believe, except for older restaurant cars probably from LMS days, and invariably very clean and tidy. This contrasted with the usually filthy A3s themselves.

3) From a look at some of Eric Treacy great photos, the "Temmi", as we called it, was 10 or 11 carriages, including an RC and a brake second, with the Waverley similar but 2 carriages less.
As for schedules, I remember a couple of firemen commenting on them being very easy, especially with the A3s upgraded power thanks to double chimneys. Unlike these days, trains that were delayed en-route could make up time by driving hard, while normally there were huge savings in fuel and maintenance costs by operating the engines at less than maximum output. I have a couple of timing logs from 'Trains Illustrated' mag March 1961 which show schedules and actual timings and speeds of A3s at each station and junction along the S&C: The "Temmi" was allowed 100 minutes non-stop Skipton to Carlisle; The Waverley stopped at Skipton, Hellifield and Appleby and was alllowed 45 minutes Hellifield to Appleby and 30 minutes onwards to Carlisle;maximum speeds for the two A3 runs were 85 and 91 mph, both recorded at Long Meg Sidings. Interestingly, both runs show before-time arrivals at Carlisle. If anyone is interested in these timing logs, just pm me with your Email address and I'll send you a scan of the pages.

As mentioned in an earlier post, the S&C A3s had been displaced from the North-East (Heaton mpd) by diesels (D200's ?), and were displaced again in 1963 when the 'Peak' diesels moved in and the A3s headed for the scrap heap. Luckily, thanks to Microsoft and the MSTS community we can virtually relive those great years.

Cliff

[1crick14a]

Also I read somewhere that A3 Papyrus held the record for the fastest assent over Aisgill from the North side topping the summit at over 50 mph.

Regards, Rick

[marcusboon]

Some extra info on S&C train services in 1960:

http://www.geocities.com/hellifielduk/

Marcus Boon

[CLIFFB]

Thanks for the link, Marcus. Excellent website....it focuses on traffic through Hellifield around 1960, and on the station itself.

Hellifield station is superbly modelled in the Skipton 1920's route; the custom models are dead accurate and even include the fancy roof supports and the unusual tunnel station entranceway. Brilliant. One of the best stations modelled in MSTS, perhaps???

Cliff