[Copyright / Piracy] kujurailsimulator.nl

[growler37]

I see no problem with sharing content with other sites providing! they ask first!
afterall we are part of a railsim community and i think its great to share our efforts.
Gerjan1 emailed me to ask if my RS reskins could be available for download on his site, and i was more than happy to give my permission .
The problem is when your files are found on sites for download without permission,there is no excuse for that its like cyber poaching.
on the premium accounts issue,there is a six month option,which costs the price of a few beers,and the subs help pay for this brilliant site.
imho its great value.
with thanks
kevin

[Easilyconfused]

I agree with Mike, what's the problem, you pays your money or you dont, as long as our hobby is getting out there that means more people will enjoy and appreciate all the hard work (freeware) you people are doing and come back for more, and the work you do spreads around generating more interest which can only be good for the genre, i am a member of Kujurailsimulator.nl and appreciate the fact that i can get content which you cant get here! In fact they had two of my scenarios which i didnt know they had, did i moan? No i was happy that more people were able to enjoy it, come on fellas let's not get litigious and try to work together and get on and sort it out all nice and friendly. The registration is free, the site is free to use, the downloads are free! Where does it say that that is a bad thing?

Mart

Well, although I agree to a great extent with Mike and fully appreciate his efforts with Route-Riter (I hope others who are of the same mind have also sent a donation ?) there are some wider issues to address.

See http://forums.uktrainsim.com/viewtopic. ... &start=129 for an example of what happens when somebody decides that they don't want to stand in line here for a route that is only supposed to be available here. It could have led to a very good route being withdrawn forever for legitimate members and still circulating for ages on the illegal download sites.

It doesn't matter if a site is free, the downloads are free - what matters is what the content owners want or require.

[Sly401]

As I said my concerns are mainly due to the way content is linked together in RailSimulator and the possible consequences of having non current files.

This has been fresh ground for nearly everyone and certainly my own contributions were intended as experimental, we already have the situation where one contribution is overwriting another one so one or both will be probably be withdrawn and replaced... making any scenarios using that content unusable.

Concerns

1. Non current files that fail to work as expected and reflect badly on the author.
2. Zero support given by authors at these other locations... again possibly reflecting badly.
3. Less accurate D/L data available.. these could possibly affect the next project undertaken.
4. Where will the canvassing stop.. Any increase in popularity will undoubtably lead to more requests.. just like AutoTrader
5. Target support for the community that is most likely to reciprocate with content in your area of interest
6. Lack of respect for Authors by posting without permission.

I am undecided at the moment but will certainly do not want "beta" stock all over the place

I am already embarrased by the quality of my first Uploads (new ones are ready ) and would hate to think that in 3 years time some Romalatviovakian site is going to be displaying them as the latest state of the art from "Mr Sly"........ scary

New to this game and any contributions have been made for myself and I would like to share them with like minded people... "like minded" being the operative bit

Sly

[sniper297]

Probably a dozen different versions of MSTS PO&N on various websites around the world, in fact I think PO&N 6 for MSTS is still available in places. Some with patches, some without, I rarely get emails asking about obsolete versions not working, if I do I sort it out, no problem. If I was SELLING software then yes, I would be concerned about reputation, but since this is a hobby I really don't care about it. Not looking for fame & glory here, in fact most people probably never heard of me altho I've been uploading mods and addons for various games since the '80s. To me the whole idea of freeware is sharing stuff with each other so we can combine our different talents to make it more fun for everybody. Not everyone agrees with that concept of "kick the little brat out as soon as he's out of diapers and disown him", so we end up with EULAs for "freeware". That's not actually "freeware", that's "conditionware", and I don't use conditionware. New steam shunter for railsim in the file library, downloaded, unzipped, read the EULA, deleted it without bothering to install to see what it looked like. If I can't reskin and share freely without restrictions it's no use to me, I don't accept gifts with strings attached. Learned that with the MSTS K-36, anyone want one reskinned for the PO&N? Sorry, can't have it, it never existed anywhere except on my system, and after it gathered dust for a few years awaiting permission from the ever elusive egomaniac who wrote the EULA, I finally just gave up and deleted it along with all the other "freeware" on my system that had EULA attached to it.

My suggestion, best bet is if you're gonna worry about what happens to your baby out in the cold cruel world, keep him at home. You're looking for fame and adoration learn to smash guitars so you can be a rock star, making toy trains ain't gonna get you there.

[g0fthick]

As far as I'm concerned, if I release freeware onto the internet then I can't realistically expect it to stay in one place. I'd certainly prefer it if that were the case because I could easily track figures such as downloads so as to know what's popular and what's not and continue from there.

However as the developer this content is yours and if you don't wish other sites to be hosting it then they should respect that.

Providing you stated in the release notes that the content should not be uploaded without author's permission then you have the right to demand it taken down on account of Copyright Infringement.

[steampsi]

Welcome to the net. Fact of life. If the record companies can't beat it with tons of money no one will.

If seeing your stuff spread around it makes you feel bad then don't release it.

You can't beat it. Embrace it. Look on the bright side - as a minimum it shows your efforts are wanted by others, and as a side bonus your creation will now persist for much longer than you !!

[growler37]

Hi
Put this into perspective,i have reskinned a dozen or so RS locos into current commercial companys corporate brandings!
I cannot really say these are mine,
firstly the liveries are subject to copyright,so straight away i am guilty of copyright infringement.
did you know that the uk big four logos and liveries are still copyright,along with BR brandings!
If you search the MSTS1 downloads library you will find content from the very dawn of time,thats great! it shows how far our hobby has come.
the bottom line is (and i agree with sniper)if you dont want your projects all over the net,leave them on your hard drive.
kevin

[eloc13]

Hello everyone,
I think, there's a misunderstanding
We don't place everything on our site, so don't say this, when you are not sure!!
For the most downloads we have permission. That's because we are the largest site in the Benelux. Here is a big market, so I think it's a good step.
And why is the reason that you want to place your download on uktrainsim.com? It's almost the same as payware
We are free, and your download will be very populair.
This isn't a text to persuade you, I only want to inform you about the site, and the FREE downloadarea.

We are legal, and when you want to have your download only here at uktrainsim, we will remove the download from our downloadarea.
Don't make such a commotion about a download......
My downloads are free available, and when anyone place the download on there site, do it!
But what you all do, is set your download only here, to sponsor uktrainsim.com.
I think, this is not the sense, or am I wrong?
I think, you want to place your download at so many places, that everyone can download them and see them...
Eloc13 - KRSTeam the Netherlands
http://www.kujurailsimulator.nl

[CHRISGEO]

I have to express my disatisfaction with uk ts as I find it really annoying waiting on the quee just to pay for some because they want it(by making you wait in the queue they are somehow force you to become premium member),and IMO we just want to have freeware not payware.Thats my opinion on it,so in the end I apreciate eloc and his site

[Retro]

I have to express my disatisfaction with uk ts as I find it really annoying waiting on the quee just to pay for some because they want it(by making you wait in the queue they are somehow force you to become premium member),and IMO we just want to have freeware not payware.Thats my opinion on it,so in the end I apreciate eloc and his site

I became a premium member of UK TrainSim in 2004 and apart from a brief spell when I was ill and not able to renew my membership still am to this day. I do not mind paying for downloads. The site has to be maintained for all to use. FlightSim.com also has a similar system if you want fast downloads. Also if you purchased one of the CD's available you got premium membership for a set time. With modern broadband connections waiting in a queue should not be a major problem if paying is not an option.
As far as the Developer finding their work on other sites that have not asked permission. If it is freeware this is technically not illegal AFAIK but it does bring up many problems with incorrect versions or corrupted files lack of support etc.. I personally think is only right and proper that freeware developers should be asked by the site host if they can display their work for download first and that the developer has a right to say no. In the FlightSim world this has caused some problems and developers tend to favour one or two sites only for the reasons I mentioned above.
I have suffered the inconvenience of downloading an incomplete file for FS9 that was not supposed to be on that site and had been a faulty version downloaded from the developers chosen site and re hosted without permission before he had time to sort out the problem and replace the file with the correct one. He got bombarded by e-mails from people who had the faulty version. The site with the faulty download will remain unamed but should have known better.
Regards James.

[Easilyconfused]

Hello everyone,
I think, there's a misunderstanding
We don't place everything on our site, so don't say this, when you are not sure!!
For the most downloads we have permission. That's because we are the largest site in the Benelux. Here is a big market, so I think it's a good step.
And why is the reason that you want to place your download on uktrainsim.com? It's almost the same as payware

Well that raises 2 questions straight away. You say for "most" downloads you have permission so for some you don't ? Basic logic there - so why do you feel you can upload stuff without permission ? We have had repeated problems here with permissions and people getting quite upset that their work has been uploaded without permission. The bad feelings can go a long way and lead to stock withdrawals that hurt all the members.

I would also dispute the assertation that this site is a payware site - Matt has explained the economics a number of times. The queuing system is better than the old 8:00pm feeding frenzy every night. I have paid membership of Train-sim.com too since I can't get on there at a convenient time for free downloads. Just to clarify that - moderators here do pay for premium access (or not if they choose to use the free access).

But what you all do, is set your download only here, to sponsor uktrainsim.com.
I think, this is not the sense, or am I wrong?
I think, you want to place your download at so many places, that everyone can download them and see them...

May be this is a cultural thing ? I am not interested in some sort of popularity contest for my meagre downloads. I want to support this site. I know that the points raised by Jim and others are perfectly valid - once something is uploaded you lose control of it. However, I choose to upload my stuff here. My German boss has a saying "give someone your little finger and they will try to take your arm". Well this is how I feel - if I have 1 upload site to worry about updating if someone finds an error then that is easy - if I have 5 then it gets harder and takes more of my time and people get upset if the sites are out of synch.

I know at least one of my activities that was only uploaded here is on some server in the Czech Republic since I had a fairly nasty email about it not working since it needed stock from this site. I replied to that effect and got an even worse obscene response resulting in that email address going into the spam filter and for all I know it is still going there since I never check my permablocked email address filters.

I have to express my disatisfaction with uk ts as I find it really annoying waiting on the quee just to pay for some because they want it(by making you wait in the queue they are somehow force you to become premium member),and IMO we just want to have freeware not payware.Thats my opinion on it,so in the end I apreciate eloc and his site

As noted above - Matt has gone through the logic behind the economics of this site several times. You have a choice - pay and get faster downloads or queue for the free ones. A large proportion of the time spent over the last few years on this site by Matt has been to improve the non-premium services.

[SWT450]

Hmmm I see nothing wrong with the way the UKTS system works, I buy a monthly membership when a lot of new content becomes avalible as i no longer use MSTS i see no need of me buying 6 or 12 monyh memberships when i don't do that much downloading of stock.

I agree with the owners of the work, IT IS like taking your friends car without permission Free or not the person creating the model has spent time and effort into making it a great quality, you want it free, you learn the modeling and make your own version.

I would rather contribute a monthly membership here and there to pay towards the upkeep of this site. I am sure we can all be civil and grown up here but if you take it without eaven thinking of asking permission free or not it's still not nice. dose not hurt to briefly take tiem to ask that person if you may upload thier content onto your site.

It is the owners choice what site / s they want it on OR indeed only wish it to be avalible from one site and one site only.

thse are MY views i think it's only fair.

[stuartrayner]

I have no problem with supporting the running of a site (any site) that I find particularly useful. It doesnt come across to me as a commercial venture, just covering costs. One of the things I like about UKTS (and ts.com could maybe think about this) is the ability to pay monthly. Of course it works out a bit more expensive, but it does spread the cost, which is a good thing for me.

Back on topic, this discussion reminds me of the availability of BVE, in that for various reasons Mackoy San insisted that files be obtained from his site only, but that links were encouraged so long as they were not directly to the files themselves. It seemed to work pretty well as far as I could see.

I can see others points of view as well though. I guess at the end of the day, if the author has put in the time and effort, the least any site can do is let them know and ask if there are any objections (not quite the same thing as active permission, its opt-out rather than opt-in), so that they can at least get an idea of popularity and where to provide support.

[GerJan1]

As I said my concerns are mainly due to the way content is linked together in RailSimulator and the possible consequences of having non current files.

Paul, there are enough dedicated site’s to the sim. They will also try to update there downloads with the latest version. For instance when we have the permission of an author and a new version comes out it will stand the same day at our download section even without a warning of the author. We aren’t as big as UkTrainSim ore Trainsim.com but I can assure You that our dedication to the sim is as great as here, and there are more smaller site’s that will have that attitude. We want also the best for our members.

How You can see this? Visit that site and look around, register if necessary and look around in there download section You will see fast enough if it’s a site that is dedicated to the sim and decide than Yes or No.

[AndiS]

I will never understand why people always need to try to have everyone share one (their) opinion. There are big sites with paid membership. There are many small, free sites. There are people who want to distribute their content to the world, via any channel. There are others who want to contribute to a specific community. There are people resigning to the violation of their copyright, and others who don't.

The only important word for me in this context is "ask", before uploading anything which is not yours. Just like using a car, or taking a seat. While copying things is no technical problem, if you live within EU or the US, as a site owner you are in trouble if someone takes the issue serious, and you do not have permissions for all the files on your site. Anything else does not matter, let there be diversity. But please respect the rights of creators. It cannot further the hobby if you don't, at least not in the long run.