Voyager out...Come back loco hauled trains all is forgiven!

[Goingnorth]

Now I quite like the Voyagers, but not for Dundee-Penzance journeys.

Birmingham-Bristol/Manchester/Sheffield or Reading maybe....

Nor, I hasten to add, does Richard Bowker (chairman of the Strategic Rail authority) think much of long-distance DMUs. To quote from Rail magazine: ‘My view is that for the long-distance, infrequent-stop services, a train with head-end power (that’s a good ol’ fashioned loco to you and me RT) is the right way to go. The ‘180s’ and ‘220s’ are excellent trains for the frequent inter-regional market, but I’m not sure if it’s the right product for long-distance’

Thankfully, Chief Exec of GNER, Chris Garnett agrees:

‘Underfloor power is not suitable for inter-city journeys. It’s OK for shorter distances, but we have got to go for head-end power with a diesel-electric drive’

So it looks like GNER, First Great Western and maybe even Virgin could be keen on the HST2 concept. Essentially a hybrid diesel AND electric train with a good old fashioned engine and maybe 7 or 8 trailer cars. Now this is more like it! Could be the best thing for years or what?

I see voyager has already run in to trouble with major complaints about space on board. Luggage being a particular problem...oh well..

[madmardy]

I must admit i don't go out looking at trains but i was at nuneaton on sunday and what did i see but a something to manchester come in (i think from down reading way or poole) class 47 hauled, i went down the other end to see the 86 they were putting on and guess what there was a 47 at the other end too.So this train left for manch hauled by a 86 and having a 47 at each end, three loco's for one train? weird.
i assume this is some kind of push pull system

[Goingnorth]

Aha! Just to confuse you even more that sounds like topping and tailing for a diversion maybe.

At one stage, Virgin's trains to Portsmouth Harbour were regularly worked Top 'n' Tail. Because of 'operational' restrictions a 47 was attached at New street and worked down to Portsmouth...albeit dead. Basically a 120 ton dead weight of the back or 3 extra coaches.

The operational restrictions were: No Virgin shunting staff, no run-around facilities and no outbased Virgin locos.

[johndibben]

They would be excellent for the Bletchley to Bedford sevice

[crosscountry]

I like them
they are fast, comfy, spacious, have huge windows.
maybe the solution with voyagers is putting trailers in to boost them to 7 or 8 car units, then seats can be removed for extra luggage space.
incidentally, if you see the size of the loos you'll know where that luggage space has gone.
Virgin's original spec for XC demanded a loco haul option for really long distances but presumably manfacturers didn't see such a small order as viable.
HST 2 will probably happen when GNER or FGW need to replace their fleets.
FGW being the biggest order.
In travel often on Voyagers Preston to carlisle, bristol, b/ham etc and have never found anything wrong with them, on the current timetable they get crowded when not running two sets but this might change come september.
Oh, yeah, by the way, Voyager is a superior product to the class 180 Adelante.

[RobindeJones]

Yikes, this one again. I in part do agree, a HST2 type train would be fantastic, but Voyager is what we have, and it offers a lot over HST, good acceleration, tilt (when in operation - lets not forget that Virgin have taken the risk on that one) electronic reservation signs, and those cool head phone sockets - why had no-one done that before.
I guess GNER and FGW will look for loco based trains, and expect the product to be better - did any one see that Siemens proposal to build a dual power train?
Whatever, Voyager Meridian is here to stay. They are going to be on the XC network for 20 years plus I guess, and I imagine the MIdland Mainline, will probably buy more and standadise the fleet.
I do agree that there could be a 'better train'. But lets not lose sight of the difference that these brand new fleets of trains will make

Robin

[southcoasttrains]

Voyagers are good in someways than other, like at Brighton, the carrages had to be placed into the platform first then the loco, this can be time consuming as Brighton is a busy place, the voyagers just driver in and then drive out and saves a lot of time.

They should invent a loco or unit that takes Diesal, overhead wires and third rail tractions, pointless running a diesal train on a route that is fully electrified, like Anglia Railwaysand the 170's, they should of used the 357's

[Goingnorth]

Yikes, this one again. I in part do agree, a HST2 type train would be fantastic, but Voyager is what we have, and it offers a lot over HST, good acceleration, tilt (when in operation - lets not forget that Virgin have taken the risk on that one) electronic reservation signs, and those cool head phone sockets - why had no-one done that before.
I guess GNER and FGW will look for loco based trains, and expect the product to be better - did any one see that Siemens proposal to build a dual power train?
Whatever, Voyager Meridian is here to stay. They are going to be on the XC network for 20 years plus I guess, and I imagine the MIdland Mainline, will probably buy more and standadise the fleet.
I do agree that there could be a 'better train'. But lets not lose sight of the difference that these brand new fleets of trains will make

Robin

Well if the SRA/Virgin have any sense, Virgin will get the Trans-Pennine franchise and they will be used on there. And titling Voyagers on that route would really suit. Steep gradients in places, sinuous curves on the Huddersfield-Manchester part and potential for high-speed running on the ECML would be a real winner.

Hopefully HST2 will replace the really long distance stuff, such as Edinburgh-Plymouth and Bournemouth-Newcastle. Sounds good to me.

[RobindeJones]

Well if the SRA/Virgin have any sense, Virgin will get the Trans-Pennine franchise and they will be used on there. And titling Voyagers on that route would really suit. Steep gradients in places, sinuous curves on the Huddersfield-Manchester part and potential for high-speed running on the ECML would be a real winner.

I back that one. Now that really would make a difference to the Trans-Pennine Franchise. It may not be quite a inter city franchise, but its worth a lot more than 158's.

Robin

[Goingnorth]

Yep, I know what you are saying, people say Trans-pennine is not 'intercity' but it serves several very large centres: Liverpool, Warrington, Manchester, Huddesfield, Leeds, Hull, Newcasle, Teeside.

In a sense it's far more 'inter-city' than the East coast main line! Why 3 car 90mph DMUs were used on such a route God only knows. With market shares (such as 71% between Newcastle-Leeds of all transport) serving 15-20million people or more it seems crazy!

I would guess with a really decent upgrade it would be a real money spinner! Voyagers would be ideal considering the distances and track.

[crosscountry]

Virgin are not in the running for TPX.
It is down to Arriva, Connex and First, but Arriva (the preferred bidder) have already stated that Voyager would be their train of choice for the route.
First might go for a Coradia/Adelante type thing but with the success of Voyager they could be tempted.
As for Connex, who knows.
Virgin ARE bidding for Greater Anglia, against First, GNER and GB Rail (Anglia), which should be fun.
I totally agree about the unsuuitability of the 158 for TPX duties and would personallly propose that summer weekend services to Blackpool North went over to LHCS, but Arriva are a bunch of monkeys so this will never happen.
The 158 is totally inadequate for this job but will hopefully mean Pacers bite the dust when they are cascaded from TPX to Northern as new Intercity (ie Voyager) units come into service.
The SRA has already said in the conditions for the TPX franchise that the route should be of "intercity" standard, and so it bloody well should, too late for me though, I move to cardiff in September so my days of transpennine travel will be all but over, XC for me only from now on.
(mumbles something about going through Bristol rather than sitting on a . 158 through the welsh marches for hours and arriving at Crewe only to get on the F*ing train from Bristol)

[crosscountry]

incidentally Voyagerisation of the TPX route would give most trains on the ECML north of York 125mph capability allowing more paths and greater reliability.
Now if only they stopped running that stupid Newcastle to Saltburn train, or sent it through Hartlepool....pah!
When pacers are finally cut up, can I PLEEEEEEEEEESE take the first hack?

[Goingnorth]

Well it will be more like North of Leeds when Virgin finish the XC upgrade. I think most of the Church fenton route is pencilled in for 125mph...certainly 110mph. As for Leeds-Stalybridge it's mostly 85/90 mph now, that's down to the curvature. But with tilting Voyagers that could go up to 100 or 110 even.

Yes running at 125mph will relieve a lot of the capacity problems on the ECML to an extent. Matching speed profiles is a good move. Really Thames trains should be running Voyagers (or similar) on their Paddington/Oxford/Hereford and Stratford trains. 90mph Turbos don't mix well with 125mph HSTs out of Paddington.

You know, I swear Virgin was in for the TPX franchise. Certainly it was talked about at some stage. I hope whoever gets it will use voyagers...as I said it's a good train for that route.

[crosscountry]

Check rail magazine, I think you'll find that the final three bidders are First, Connex (god help us) and Arriva, so whoever we get it'll be shi$.

[FuNky2k]

Pushpull is the future, bring back class 50's who wouldn't want a 50 on each end??