SE new trains

[enotayokel]

Arn't those people who did coke.

*hasn't touched speed since last year - what I had at infest was too strong and made me ill - haven't munted since!*

[arabiandisco]

The best thing about this I find is the government/Olympic committee/media/MPs are jumping up and down saying WOW look at this new cool train that does 140mph!

I hate to point out that the class 91s are cool trains that have been capable of 140mph since they were introduced over 10years ago as are the Pendilonos, neither of which will utilise this high speed even though they serve considerably more people. So what’s so special about these 6 coach Javelins other than they DONT convey 1st class, DONT convey a restaurant car, DONT really serve anyone outside of Kent and they DONT really have a wow factor or offer anything new.

Although I can understand their role for the Olympics, and I can see why they have such a high speed, but its yet another example of the North being exploited in favour of the South. I think its a shame after spending all this money we have trains on the ECML and WCML that can do 140mph and never will and the GWML and MML continue to use 25year old diesel stock. Not to mention the fact many local lines face closure and many passengers still ride Pacers to work. Next Olympics should be held in Manchester/Liverpool/Leeds and Newcastle!

It's nothing to do with north/ south. They have to have high speed trains to use the CTRL - any slower and they'd get in the way of eurostars.

The question of whether blocking up the CTRL with commuter trains is a good plan or not is not something I'm going to get in to. The railway is going to be there and the government want to exploit it as much as they can.

The IOC have said that they are not interested in "regional" cities - it has to be capitals in countries like the UK. Obviously, the US is a special case...

Which lines face closure?

[skipperdipper]

This is another example of the south being 'extravegant'. And this is another example of the DfT/Goverment willing to fund new stock in the south east which has recently recieved new/refurbished stock, and yet, in the north, new stock wont be funded, so its left to the PTE's, TOC's and the local councils to get the money.

Rob

[yorkie]

The south had to cope with 40 year old stock until recently so its not that bad, but no doubt you would rather the south should have just kept these slam door stock and had no new trains at all and the north get all the new items (no offence)

I'd far rather travel in a CIG, CEP or VEP than a bloody Pacer! (Reliability of at least 10 times more miles per casualty, higher top speed, better ride, more efficient, cheaper to run/maintain, etc...) Yet the most reliable trains are now gone, and we have to keep the least reliable up North for the forseeable future.

It annoys me when people have a go at good trains because they are "old", calling something "old" suggests it is unreliable and slow, this isn't always the case.

[BR7MT]

It annoys me when people have a go at good trains because they are "old", calling something "old" suggests it is unreliable and slow, this isn't always the case.

Not old, just fundamentally unsafe...

Anyway, the invested in the 395's is justified in order to better utilise the CTRL. The only other stock in the UK capable of being used (with a little modification) on the CTRL would be the 390's, and I doubt Mr Branson would be very impressed if he lost 14 of his brand new Pendalino's!

By awarding the contract to build the units to Hitachi, it is possible to see how good the quality of their rolling stock is before the next tranche of replacement stock orders. In an ideal world I think SET should have got A-Trains instead of the Electrostars. That would mean practically all of the SET rolling stock having identical traction packages (465/0, 465/1, A-Train and 395's) by 2012.

Regards,

Dan

[mattvince]

The Mk1 vs Electrostar/Desiro argument is flogging a fossilised horse - Lord Hidden declared them to be unsafe, HMRI imposed an end-date, and that has been kept to (just about). Anyway - are the reliability figures the right ones? Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics...

Miles-Per-Casualty is only one measure - there are others, revolving round delay minutes caused by each incident. If Trains A and B are working identical duties: train A has an MPC figure 10 times that of train B, however Train B averages 6 minutes delay for each 'casualty', whereas Train A sits down mightly causing 60 minutes of delay each time. Arguably the two are equally unreliable, as both are incurring the same delay minutes over a similar timeframe, it's just that B has niggling little faults which a TMS reset fixes (and is otherwise utterly reliable), whilst train A has no niggling little faults, but a failure is massive. Both will cost the operator equally in penalties.

Dan - I take it you've had a chance to read this month's column by Lord Alycidon of Welwyn?

[BR7MT]

Dan - I take it you've had a chance to read this month's column by Lord Alycidon of Welwyn?

Not yet - what topics are covered?

Regards,

Dan

[danny3]

The south had to cope with 40 year old stock until recently so its not that bad, but no doubt you would rather the south should have just kept these slam door stock and had no new trains at all and the north get all the new items (no offence)

I'd far rather travel in a CIG, CEP or VEP than a bloody Pacer! (Reliability of at least 10 times more miles per casualty, higher top speed, better ride, more efficient, cheaper to run/maintain, etc...) Yet the most reliable trains are now gone, and we have to keep the least reliable up North for the forseeable future.

It annoys me when people have a go at good trains because they are "old", calling something "old" suggests it is unreliable and slow, this isn't always the case.

I have seen how bad pacers are , I liked the "slam door" stock simply because you could actually open the doors. Although some of them were bad (not as in engine reliabilty) but as in litter, smell and the seats. I'm sure that when the CIG, VEP and CEP first came out they had bugs as well , it takes a while for the bugs to be worked out.

I do think that those Pacers should be replaced (with the pacers sold to france , or shoved into the deepest ditch). I only meant because of Age wise not the actual reliabilty of the stock itself .

There is only going to be 28 of these new trains though and they aren't going all over kent just fast services. (infact the slower stopping services will probably be worse )

[Elojikal]

wonder how many of them will be immigrants instead of brits?

Supply and demand is the most simple but most fundamental doctrines that affects all walks of life. If a country cannot provide, produce and supply the goods, services and skilled people it requires that it has to import them. If there aren't enough "Brits" (whatever that actually means, as we are all immigrants in one way or another) to fill the jobs that need to be filled then an employer has to look elsewhere. And it's not as if the rail industry pays low wages these days.

[viperskil]

Has anyone actually thought that these could be usedd as a new breed of electric cross country stock via Stratford up the ECML to Scotland and maybe if they dont pay their way in Kent how about the new North-South HSL?

[johncard]

I do think that those Pacers should be replaced (with the pacers sold to france , or shoved into the deepest ditch). I only meant because of Age wise not the actual reliabilty of the stock itself .

Good idea! I mean, if our loading gauge is smaller than Europe's, I'm sure we could flog them off for use on some ailing line somewhere. The stats might need optimising slightly though

John

[viperskil]

atomicdanny wrote:
I do think that those Pacers should be replaced (with the pacers sold to france , or shoved into the deepest ditch). I only meant because of Age wise not the actual reliabilty of the stock itself .
Good idea! I mean, if our loading gauge is smaller than Europe's, I'm sure we could flog them off for use on some ailing line somewhere. The stats might need optimising slightly though

John

One problem France is going all electric in the next 15 years (or Jaques Chirac wants it to be anyway) so i wouldn't really think they'd want more trash.

[thelondontube]

I'd much rather have a slammer than an Electrostar... but we're not here to debate that now, are we?
In my opinion, Kent commuters won't have any of this 'High Speed' .. People have commuted from Kent into the Capital for practically 100 years, since the birth of the rail lines into Kent. The majority are used to long journey times and old stock. The problem with Kent that the various Victorian companies that made the present South Eastern area didn't build four running lines into their lines. Take, for example, Southern Routes to Croydon and Brighton. 4 running lines... fast up, slow up, fast down and slow down. IMHO, the money they're spending on these trains would be much better spent doubling tracks into the Capital. A classic example of where this needs to happen is at Borough Market (TL2000 Project). Only 2 lines, one up and one down, serve the lines to Charing X and Kings X TL after leaving london bridge... TWO! Now think of the traffic that passes over that in an hour. This project needs to be replicated across Kent if rail services are ever to improve... Sod High Speed trains at premium prices. Majority of people live in kent and commute for a better standard of living... if they're gonna pay a premium train fare, they might as well rent a flat in the centre of the capital and be done with it! The timetable needs a bloody good rework too. *phew* right, thats my piece.

[BR7MT]

Thameslink 2000 (3000) has been delayed purely because of the planning constraints, expecially those concerning the listed Borough Market. If that site wasn't there we would have the necessary extra tracks through that junction by now.

As for a premium price for getting into London from Ashford in 40 minutes, then I think there is a business case there, and Govia obviously think there is a business case otherwise they wouldn't have got the franchise. Hell, I would be willing to pay extra to get home quicker in the evenings (if I lived in Ashford), it would give me more time in the evenings for relaxing.

Regards,

Dan

[arabiandisco]

You'd get about 2km of 4-tracking in the london area for the cost of those trains.

I'll get you a spade and you can start digging the second bore for the Sydenham - Penge tunnel...

The current commuters from East Kent might not be interested in the high speed link, but it may well attract new people who wouldn't have considered Ashford, Canterbury or Dover as a potential place to commute from previously. And no doubt some people will say "no, i'll never need that", and then try it for some reason or other, and it'll be like broadband - you can never go back to dial-up.