Are Our Cities Subitable For S-Bahn

Samd22 · Post by **Samd22** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:01 am

High speed line to the South West from Waterloo?

Samd22 · Post by **Samd22** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 9:11 pm

Just another thought but I'd like to see Merseyside, Cheshire, Gtr Manchester, Lancashire and West Yorkshire combined under one S-Bahn style network similar to that of the Rhin-Rhur covering several different cities, their suburbs and their satellite towns.

alexnick · Post by **alexnick** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 10:13 pm

Samd22 wrote:Just another thought but I'd like to see Merseyside, Cheshire, Gtr Manchester, Lancashire and West Yorkshire combined under one S-Bahn style network similar to that of the Rhin-Rhur covering several different cities, their suburbs and their satellite towns.

Good idea!

Samd22 · Post by **Samd22** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:13 pm

alexnick wrote:
Samd22 wrote:Just another thought but I'd like to see Merseyside, Cheshire, Gtr Manchester, Lancashire and West Yorkshire combined under one S-Bahn style network similar to that of the Rhin-Rhur covering several different cities, their suburbs and their satellite towns.
Good idea!

Cool, would be very handy for implementing big projects in that area such as upgrading the trans pennine crossings and building a new one. Other stuff that could be done is building a new annex on the site of the old Leeds Central and building a tunnel from there to Cross Gates and Wakefield/Castleford lines to provide more capacity. Connecting the two Bradford lines with a new station, building a link from keighley to Colne and a by-pass line from Ashton to Leeds.....just my thoughts though.

Other areas to enjoy such an S-Bahn/RER network would be Gtr London, West Midlands, Strathclyde and on a smaller scale Tyne & Wear.

Other areas would probably be fine with an improved regional stopping service pattern like what the Dutch do with the schneltrain.

alexnick · Post by **alexnick** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 9:11 am

Just a thought - how well do you think the Portsmouth/Southampton area would be suited to some kind of urban network like that. It strikes me that the local lines in that are would do well feeding into the main stations. Perhaps it's best as a Stadtbahn (tram/metro) operation, rather than using existing mainlines.

Hmm, I'd like to see the Pennine routes developed further, but I remain sceptical - we don't like investing in transport in this country much. In my opinion, if we organise S-Bahns in the built up areas, shouldn't we also sort out rural routes too - there are too many which have really annoying gaps in services and so on - I think this is really bad for passengers. If we could organise rural routes into regular hourly, or maybe even two-hourly services, it would be a much more attractive offer to paseengers.

My final thought is that Britain's bus network seems to compete with local train services too much. Is there no way that we could harmonise the two as is done in most European countries? Providing connections between buses and trains, and not competing with each other so much would be more efficient...aahhh, nationalisation!

Nick

Samd22 · Post by **Samd22** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 9:55 am

Just a thought - how well do you think the Portsmouth/Southampton area would be suited to some kind of urban network like that. It strikes me that the local lines in that are would do well feeding into the main stations. Perhaps it's best as a Stadtbahn (tram/metro) operation, rather than using existing mainlines.

I think it would do quite well from such a scheme, for such a system I'd like to see a rail link to the Isle of Wight and a line from Fareham across the harbour throat and connecting with the Portsmouth line from the west. It would be either a tunnel for heavy rail trains or just a mixture of street and track running for a stadtbahn.

Hmm, I'd like to see the Pennine routes developed further, but I remain sceptical - we don't like investing in transport in this country much. In my opinion, if we organise S-Bahns in the built up areas, shouldn't we also sort out rural routes too - there are too many which have really annoying gaps in services and so on - I think this is really bad for passengers. If we could organise rural routes into regular hourly, or maybe even two-hourly services, it would be a much more attractive offer to paseengers.

Major investment is needed and is sadly lacking, best thing to do is to get everyone on the railways pulling in the same direction and making best use of the existing infrastructure. Organising local networks into a regular frequency timetable will show what can be done. If the Government can see what good organisation and co-operation can do they might be more willing to invest in really big projects.

Basically get the 'cheap' projects done and working.

My final thought is that Britain's bus network seems to compete with local train services too much. Is there no way that we could harmonise the two as is done in most European countries? Providing connections between buses and trains, and not competing with each other so much would be more efficient...aahhh, nationalisation!

Buses need re-regulating in my opinion, should be complementing rather then competing with trains. We need a fully joined up network and the only way to achieve that is regulation. Maybe we should just have one nationalised rail/bus company?

GrahamK · Post by **GrahamK** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 2:29 pm

alexnick wrote:Just a thought - how well do you think the Portsmouth/Southampton area would be suited to some kind of urban network like that. It strikes me that the local lines in that are would do well feeding into the main stations. Perhaps it's best as a Stadtbahn (tram/metro) operation, rather than using existing mainlines.

Given that I live on the back of the disused railway line out of Gosport I personally think that Gosport Station should be re-instated and heavy rail services run out of it making it a hub of the SWT network.

If that can't be done then I think severe changes should be made, and new routes planned at Fareham, to allow more services through Fareham that go to more destinations that just Portsmouth, Brighton, London Waterloo & Victoria, Southampton and Cardiff. There is a whole lot of country out there, and I can't believe that Fareham is considered as sitting on a branch line, whilst Gosport is the biggest town in the country to not have a train station in it.

Madness!

Graham

alexnick · Post by **alexnick** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 6:53 pm

Oh, connectivity in this region seems appalling. I live on the Portsmouth Direct Line, and you can go to either Waterloo, or Portsmouth (not even that off-peak - short workings). Even from Guildford, trains don't go very far away - and our one cross country service to Manchester at inconvenient hours. To go anywhere further away in Britain, it requires several changes, which are never well-timed!

Glad to see you've joined our complaining spirit in this thread!

Nick

mattvince · Post by **mattvince** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 10:12 am

Trans-Pennine - I'm not sure if a full Trans-Pennine S-Bahn would work - there are too many historic, economic and social divides, as well as the physical divide of the Pennines. Managing a TP-S-Bahn would be an administrative nightmare, and would end up having to be run as two or three divisions to keep the workload down and the quality high. It's hard enough for Northern Trains to integrate, if we were to go for increased frequencies, the whole thing could easily become unmanageable. I'd suggest that they form two distinct operating areas - one each side of the Pennines - with lines centred on Manchester and Leeds, and sub-nodes of Sheffield and Liverpool. Liverpool's Merseyrail system is best kept separate, as it has more in common with a Metro than S-Bahn - segregation also leads to good performance/reliability. Each urban area also has different options for solving problems - if capacity at Manchester Piccadilly or Victoria was to become a significant issue, routes may need to be transferred over to Metrolink operation (Hadfield/Glossop springs to mind). As far as Leeds is concerned, there are options, mainly involving the working of services through - perhaps by extending services to Selby or York, keeping most terminating services to the northern-most (Aire Valley) platforms.

On the subject of Leeds, could one of our correspondants there investigate if the disused Viaduct between the Wakefield (Westgate) line and Leeds City station is still intact?

The trouble with the Solent region is that a Tramway would need to be wholly separate from the main lines. We've seen how The Member of Parliament for Edinburgh West approached the subject of LRT in the region, during his tenure at DfT (I would have said lead, but that implies doing something). Unfortunately for Gosport, I suspect LRT may have been the only idea in Portsmouth City Council's transport strategy - not least as the easiest reinstatement of Gosport's rail link points towards Southampton!

Buses do need re-regulating - in fact the whole approach of deregulation was just a fallicy - sucessive falls in ridership outside London and the big conurbations suggests to me they are doing something wrong. With the threat to rural branch lines, I'm wondering whether local bus service provision should be assessed using the same method. It might just expose the DfT's approach to public transport to be a complete sham - although it will never lose them an election. Unfortunately, a 21st Century Beeching Report could be another case of DfT missing the point entirely, at tragic cost.

Samd22 · Post by **Samd22** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 12:55 pm

I'd suggest that they form two distinct operating areas - one each side of the Pennines - with lines centred on Manchester and Leeds, and sub-nodes of Sheffield and Liverpool.

That would work but what do you mena by sub-nodes exactly?

Could Bradford be included as well?

I'd like to see the two Bradford stations connected.

Liverpool's Merseyrail system is best kept separate, as it has more in common with a Metro than S-Bahn

Maybe Merseyrail should just be converted over to a full scale metro network?

segregation also leads to good performance/reliability.

Would you advocate building new s-bahn lines or just allocating tracks in areas where there are four or more tracks?

As far as Leeds is concerned, there are options, mainly involving the working of services through - perhaps by extending services to Selby or York, keeping most terminating services to the northern-most (Aire Valley) platforms.

I've got a really ambitous idea......I'd like to see an annex to Leeds City built on the old Leeds Central site and have a four track tunnel leading out from the east side and curving under Leeds and connecting with the Harrogate line at Kirkstall and then running as a four track formation with one track breaking away to the airport and onto Guiseley (would also like to see Ilkley-Skipton section re-opened) and the other line continuing onto Harrogate and Northallerton/Thirsk).

Also like to see a line from near Leeds depot to Wakefield/Castleford to provide an alternative approach and relieve strain on the 6 track western approach.

On the subject of Leeds, could one of our correspondants there investigate if the disused Viaduct between the Wakefield (Westgate) line and Leeds City station is still intact?

Could you tell me where that is on the map please?

The trouble with the Solent region is that a Tramway would need to be wholly separate from the main lines. We've seen how The Member of Parliament for Edinburgh West approached the subject of LRT in the region, during his tenure at DfT (I would have said lead, but that implies doing something). Unfortunately for Gosport, I suspect LRT may have been the only idea in Portsmouth City Council's transport strategy - not least as the easiest reinstatement of Gosport's rail link points towards Southampton!

I think a tunnel from Gosport to Portsmouth and re-opening the line form Fareham to Gosport to form a heavy rail S-Bahn would be best in that case.

mattvince · Post by **mattvince** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 3:28 pm

Samd22 wrote:That would work but what do you mena by sub-nodes exactly?

Could Bradford be included as well?

I'd like to see the two Bradford stations connected.

I'm not sure if connecting Interchange and Forster Square is justifiable in view of the cost - a hugely expensive tunnelling operation - if feasible. Certainly Bradford FS would retain it's centre as part of the Aire Valley service group, but Interchange would be part of the Halifax/Huddersfiled service, with possibly additional short workings between Interchange and Leeds, and some Calder Valley locals.

Maybe Merseyrail should just be converted over to a full scale metro network?

Not possible - it is a 'heavy metro' anyway, but has to mix with normal services at Chester and Hunts Cross, and possibly Wigan and Southport via Burscough in future - so would have to be to national rail standards.

segregation also leads to good performance/reliability.
Would you advocate building new s-bahn lines or just allocating tracks in areas where there are four or more tracks?

In the context of what I said - Merseyrail's PPM figure is heavily attributable to the fact that the system is mostly self-contained, hence tends not to import delay from the rest of the network. As a means of ensuring reliability - four-tracking should only be done where it is affordable and justifiable.

I've got a really ambitous idea......I'd like to see an annex to Leeds City built on the old Leeds Central site and have a four track tunnel leading out from the east side and curving under Leeds and connecting with the Harrogate line at Kirkstall and then running as a four track formation with one track breaking away to the airport and onto Guiseley (would also like to see Ilkley-Skipton section re-opened) and the other line continuing onto Harrogate and Northallerton/Thirsk).

Also like to see a line from near Leeds depot to Wakefield/Castleford to provide an alternative approach and relieve strain on the 6 track western approach.

Affordability will be critical - I'm not sure that a monster tunnelling project is affordable - assuming it is feasible. Squeezing more and more out of Leeds City is the best option, although see below:

On the subject of Leeds, could one of our correspondants there investigate if the disused Viaduct between the Wakefield (Westgate) line and Leeds City station is still intact?
Could you tell me where that is on the map please?

http://www.google.co.uk/local?f=l&hl=en ... 5,0.027122

My thinking is that this would allow certain trains to avoid the congested Holbeck area, putting them on the southernmost platforms at Leeds.

I think a tunnel from Gosport to Portsmouth and re-opening the line form Fareham to Gosport to form a heavy rail S-Bahn would be best in that case.

South Hants Rapid Transit was going to tunnel under the entrance to Portsmouth harbour to Gosport, then run to Fareham. It's a slightly blinkered view, but the only option as far as Portsmouth City Council saw of linking Gosport to Portsmouth effectively. HMG decided it wanted bigger aircraft carriers instead (actually a technical issue - the draught of the bigger carriers will be greater, meaning the tunnels would have to be deeper).