Anger at plans to Axe rail Coaches in the South West

gblandford · Post by **gblandford** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:56 pm

Interesting read

http://www.thisisexeter.co.uk/displayNo ... ebarsearch

salopiangrowler · Post by **salopiangrowler** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 9:10 pm

mmmm ,mr darling likes using the prase "cartiing fresh air round the country", does he not use the railways himself, i believe he doesnt, the looe lines only one carriage anyway

Samd22 · Post by **Samd22** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 9:12 pm

We need the Government to keep it's neb out of the railways and just stump up lots of cash.

enotayokel · Post by **enotayokel** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 9:24 pm

Some of this is probably to do with the splitting of the 3 car 158's to provide enough stock for the extention to Roose ordered by the Welsh Assembly (as well to try and avoid 143's on the branches)

I expect National Express or Stagecoach would be doing the same

salopiangrowler · Post by **salopiangrowler** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:35 pm

i know the welsh assembley wanted more units but i didnt think they could tell GW what to do with the stock Wessex has gone now and Cardiff could loose the 158's unless a deal has been stuck.

The Welsh assembley i think have sponsored GW to keep the Cardiff/Hereford - Paddington's running. until the change in the timetable. the Swansea - Padd's will be GW mallard set's, it has to be south wales cannot afford to loose the london connection.

im getting a sneaking suspicison that a swap is going to take place between SWT and GW, Adelante's for 159's anyone.

enotayokel · Post by **enotayokel** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:50 pm

I don't think SWT are keen on touching anything Alstom, it would be strange since SWT are getting the factory built 3 car 158s from Transpennine which are rumoured to becoming 159/1's

Virgin is the most likely for the 180s to end up as VWC is rumoured to want 12 voyagers for Holyhead to Euston, either VXC gets adelantes or the VXC network is pruned.

The Roose extention is a Franchise obligation, the Welsh assembly wants to poach airport traffic from Bristol, the Cardiff HSTs are staying but in Commuter form as are the Swanseas in Long Distance. There is no Cardiff to London via Hereford service (West of Hereford is ECS only), though the Herefords will probably be commuter HSTs

mattvince · Post by **mattvince** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:54 am

Adelantes will not go to SWT. For starters they will be 125mph units running services with a top speed of 100mph, typically less. Then there is the small matter of Salisbury Depot, which cannot take 12.5t axle weights, not to mention has no experience of QSK19s and Adelante equipment. As others have said - ex-TPE 158/9s are an almost certainty.

Adelantes could go to West Coast if they can either get paths for them at 110mph or try to get them to do 125mph for a reasonable stretch. Virgin XC are uncomfortable with the idea of anything but extra 220/221 vehicles and units - it's easy to see why: add a small fleet of a different design, and you incur the whole costs of supporting that fleet, whereas extra vehicles for an existing fleet only bring a marginal increase in fleet costs. Then there is the fact that Adelantes can only work with Adelantes (and 175s). The best option for Virgin is possibly the least palatable - order more SuperVoyagers. That way the EPS speed profile is retained on Holyheads, and it could mean VXC gets a couple more 221s into the bargain - releasing 220s off all XC services via the West Coast to accelerate all those services to EPS125 and doubling up NE/SW services. As for the Adelantes, they possibly need a route where 10 of them can spend their lives happily shuffling back and forth at 125mph. London-Oxford springs to mind...

enotayokel · Post by **enotayokel** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:25 pm

Thought that just occured to me - Are the 180's widebodied like the Turbos? If so then the only other option is Chiltern

chriscooper · Post by **chriscooper** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:51 pm

The 180s are pretty wide, being 2.8m wide. Although that is narrower than the standard 2.82m width, they are over 23m long, wheras most 2.82m with vehicles are around 20m long, and typically 23m length vehicles are around 10cm narrower. This could cause problems on some lines, although the 175s are the same width and similar length, so anywhere they operate the 180s could too. The dimensions of the Turbos are similar, being 2.81m wide and about 23.5m long. 323s also have similar dimensions.

mattvince · Post by **mattvince** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:04 pm

No, I believe they are C3 Profile (Mk3 - 23m) - unfortunately the big nose means they have slightly tighter clearances. The centre coaches are almost identical to those of the Class 175s, just with the big Cummins brute tucked under. There is the suggestion they could go to First Scotrail for 'E&G' services - with the amount of investment already being made in Scotland's railways, it seems to me a bit rich to go around pinching the Thames Valley's stock - particularly as it will leave FGW with an entirely pre-privatisation fleet! Chiltern won't have them - they're not Clubmans, they can't work with 16x units, and the ATP would need changing to the Chiltern equipment, and commissioned. By that time, it would have been cheaper and quicker for Bombardier Derby to provide additional '168s'.

You mentioned the fact that SWT use trolleys on the '159s' in another thread. To avoid digging it up, I will note that SWT quite possibly only use the trolleys because a '159' cannot realistically be fitted with a buffet. Also, the nature of the traffic, particularly beyond Salisbury/Yeovil, has more in common with regional services than a London inter-city service. Bristol and Cardiff, by contrast, are inter-city routes with significant end-to-end traffic, and a considerable competitor in the form of the M4. The HSTs are presently fitted with buffets, and while they may be commercially unsustainable in present form, a trolley service is a rung too far down. They'll need a veritable flottilla of trolleys on Friday PM down services.

mattvince · Post by **mattvince** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:11 pm

Chris - The Class 323s are distinctly narrower than 165/166 units, and much narrower at cantrail, plus have a distinct end-of-vehicle taper. A 165 is veritably palatial compared to a 323. The poor lighting and interior decor doesn't help the Hunslet-TPL product either (nor the atrocious reliability and poor operating discipline).

viperskil · Post by **viperskil** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:01 pm

Sorry but the government don't know how to handle anything right now. Nationalisation is the only true way to play with what we've got to its full potential.

slipdigby · Post by **slipdigby** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:16 pm

viperskil wrote:Sorry but the government don't know how to handle anything right now. Nationalisation is the only true way to play with what we've got to its full potential.

Sorry if I don't follow your logic, but your solution to the government lacking any coherent policy when it comes to Railways is to, erm, hand full ownership and operation of the railways to the government?

gblandford · Post by **gblandford** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:25 pm

Would we have the problem with rolling stock if the companies own them instead of TOC.

allypally · Post by **allypally** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:28 pm

165 bodies aren't that wide - 150s are a cm wider aren't they? It's the step that gets them.