Gatwick Express 460's

[XPTE]

When the Gatwick Express service is axed later this year, what will happen to the Class 460's I wonder? My guess is they'll be put on London-Brighton services.

[JSReeves86]

is it actulaly being axed the last i heared was that they were just gonna be made to stop at the other major stations en route to try to ease conjustion on other services

[XPTE]

Would have thought the services would be axed alltogether. If they stopped at even a limited amount of stations enroute then they'd cause more of a congestion for the other services. People travelling to Gatwick will just have to get on Brighton, Bognor, or whatever services instead.

[allypally]

The DfT released the wrong document by mistake - no decision has been made. Passengers will find it very difficult to travel on other trains - Brighton line trains are always notoriously full, if you've got kids and luggage, what do you do then? Personally, shove a bag in front of the door and make them wait for me, it's not my fault they withdrew they service, so everyone else can wait for the airport passengers to crawl around!

[Whitemoor]

in my opinion, the GatEx services was always too ambitios.

8 or 9 coach units every 15mins, some InterCity services aint that regular!

Me thinks a 30min service with the same units would have been better.

[AlistairW]

in my opinion, the GatEx services was always too ambitios.

8 or 9 coach units every 15mins, some InterCity services aint that regular!

Me thinks a 30min service with the same units would have been better.

I wonder what effect running it every 20minutes would have? Its one extra path an hour, ofcourse it may not be worth while once you've taken into account dwell times. I doubt that anyone would not use the service just because it was every 20 and not every 15.

Are the current GaxEx trains ever anywhere near full?

[stephenwiseman]

Are the current GaxEx trains ever anywhere near full?

Yes, during the peak periods they are often near capacity, especially as they are practically the only train to Gatwick during the rush hour, as everything else flies through. Get on the GatEx at about 7am and its usually near full.

[metromuppet]

The 460s would be best suited to the Brighton Express- or a new service running from Brighton-Gatwick-E.Croydon-Clapham-Vic. The Brighton Express is regarded at Southerns flagship service- and they use the same stock as all their other services from Brighton. If they still had their 319s running on the route and kept them up to standerds inside, they would be ideal, to what the genural public would think a different set of trains to Thameslink units. Running the 460s makes scence, although the 377s would be needed for the peaks mainly for the corridor connections and extra coaches.

[metromuppet]

Forgot to put something in my above post-
With the 377/3s, 1st class was not going to be added at first, but then relised it would be a bad mistake, as many commuters do use 1st class. So by placing a few clothes on the back on seats and a sticker on the window, they class it as first class accomodation. I am sure many users do not bother to renew their 1st class season ticket, and just buy standerd now. 1st class is not even sepperated by a door to STD. The 460s have good 1st class, with a lounge area and a door seperating the two accomodation types. The 377/4s are ok, as they have plug sockets and a sliding door, the same with the 171s. Even upgrading the inside of the 377s used on the Brighton express would do- and would provide more revenue- and would be competition for First Capitial Connect with revenue- especiely the first class. If i was paying money for first class, at the moment i would go for the 319s everytime. It has an area which is sepperated off- which is why people travel 1st class!

[mattvince]

Treading over old territory - some here at UKTS would keep the Class 460s on the Brighton Line, running a half-hourly Brighton fast service, with upgraded facilities, and extra coaches. To recall that plan, it would take currently five units to work a 30-minute frequency, based on a 50-odd minute running time with ample turnarounds at each end (Rules of the Plan say 12 minutes minimum), and putting in a long-ish stop at Gatwick (3-5 minutes). East Croydon and Clapham Junction would be served on alternate half-hours with set-down/pick-up stops (thereby avoiding crowding by short-distance passengers from Victoria, yet retaining connections onto local services and SWT at those stations). The Class 460s would gain kitchenettes in the DMFL for at-seat service in First Class, plus a sizeable bike rack. Extra coaches would come from the Class 458s coming off-lease at South West Trains, by taking out the MS vehicles, refurbishing them to Class 460 standards and fitting them to strengthen the Class 460s to 10-12 coaches (12-car would require 2 '458' PTSOL vehicles in addition).

There is merit in providing the Brighton Line with high quality stock like Class 460s - not least as it provides it with a near-equal status to Kent's future CTRL Domestic services. The Electrostar sets freed up by this would enable services elsewhere to be strengthened in the peaks - or even run more services. Two spare Class 460s would provide sufficient 'hot-spares' to cover for failures and work some peak-hour services, and one of these stationed at Gatwick to cover any 'peak' of arriving aircraft. The final set would be kept in-works for a bit of 'TLC'.

[Christopher125]

Hi

One of the biggest problems is that when the sets need tyre turning it turns into a bit of a kerfuffle because of the length of the units, having whole 10-12 fixed rakes would be even more trouble i suspect. Anyway, i believed there was a gauging issue beyond gatwick?

Chris

[Elojikal]

* The Brighton Express service is overcrowded.

* It was made worse by somebodys absurd idea to add Clapham Junction as a stop to the service. I suspect this was actually TfL's idea to improve interchange possibilities. Whoever came up with it it was naive. Drop Clapham and improve the stopping services.

* A lot of peak Brighton Express services are already full and have people standing up when they leave Victoria only to arrive at Clapham with another hundred people wanting to get on. A lot of these people are most likely getting off at East Croydon. Previously they would have used the stopping services.

* Thameslink services are overcrowded. A big problem is that they are used by people travelling from the south coast to Gatwick so are often clogged up with backpackers carrying small houses on their backs and various travellers with an entourage of overpacked suitcases.

* If these travellers started using Victoria servies it'd just be robbing Peter to pay Paul. And the Victoria commuters tend to be the ones who expect a better standard of service. Right now they're thinking there's going to be more seats. I don't think they've really thought this through.

* A Brighton-Gatwick-Victoria service could work. But stopping at East Croydon AND Clapham as well is daft when the existing fast service already stops at these stations.

* Would not the additional services take up the paths that would've most likely have been used by Thameslink 2000...

* Brighton station is near or already at capacity.

* Nobody seems to have thought about whether an influx of extra seats for commuters would not lead to the extra seating capacity being quickly soaked up by new commuters thereby nullifying any gains.

Butchering the Gatwick Express service is nothing more than a sticking plaster solution and a retrograde step. At the end of the day the Brighton line needs new capacity in the form of new infrastructure between Three Bridges and Brighton and Windmill Bridge Junction and South Croydon. But having recently read some rail publications with some mirth about the plans for a "North-South" high speed line that barely even penetrates the south I don't hold out much hope.

[charlierc]

in my opinion, the GatEx services was always too ambitios.

8 or 9 coach units every 15mins, some InterCity services aint that regular!

Me thinks a 30min service with the same units would have been better.

Exactly.

Most Intercity services (London - Newcastle - Scotland, London - Norwich, London - Manchester, London - Bristol, London - Cardiff) operate every 30 minutes, whereas some other service (London - Carlisle - Scotland, London - Cornwall) are hourly.

GEx was run every 15 minutes to support the over-crowded commuter trains over the London - Gatwick service.

I would have thought to keep up revenue it should add in calls (espicially Clapham Junction & East Croydon)

[mattvince]

Elojikal -

The East Croydon/Clapham stops may well only be off-peak - and must be Pick-Up/Set-Down, and only on alternate half-hours (To get from Clapham to East Croydon and vica-versa would require going via Gatwick). It works well enough with Virgin West Coast at Watford Junction.

With a 12-car set it should be sufficient to cope with the fast traffic - if the number and length of semi-fast Brighton services is increased (possible due to displaced stock). I doubt that Thameslink 2000 will lead to much more capacity on the Brighton Line, not least as it was scoped about a decade ago, when these problems were not as apparent. It's likely the Sutton line, the Brighton line branches, along with the North Kent and Sevenoaks lines, will be the southern beneficiaries of Thameslink (although North Kent T2000 is also conflictory with Crossrail's Abbey Wood Branch - I digress).

Brighton may well be at capacity as a station - there are a number of foolish, commercially-led decisions that appear to have been made, not least the loss of land which would permit extra platforms by the 'New England Quarter' and new station car park.

North-South HSL will not benefit Brighton - the argument would be that to build a line through London and to the south is unnecessarily costly for little real GDP benefit. Even Crossrail is to cost £10bn (for all it's worth). Only now, after 25 years of TGV operation, are SNCF even considering a TGV line under Paris (between Gare de Nord and Gare de Lyon, with a station at Republique). HSL North will serve one (or more) of the Euston Road termini, and link to CTRL, but no more. CTRL has probably put a stop on other genuine HSLs in the south - the fact that it points towards Calais and not Brighton possibly doesn't worry those at Marsham Street. The option for the Brighton Line is a new line for 100-125mph operation over the difficult section from Three Bridges. I'd even suggest this be Third Rail electrified at 100mph to avoid issues with power supply, and to reduce the cost.

Christopher125 mentions gauging and wheelturning. Gauging should not be an issue with 20-metre 'C1' gauge vehicles - the Brighton Line can take 23m Voyagers along with other much larger 20m vehicles. The only possible problem could be the overhang of the nose. Wheelturning is an issue - but only if the trains cannot be shunted at low speed as individual halves - a facility which could be retrofitted into the rebuilt ex-458 vehicles.

[arabiandisco]

If you're building a new line, 3rd rail won't save any money as you need a substation every 3 miles. Civil savings would be negligable as you'd have to build new bridges of one size or another, and making it that little bit bigger for OLE wouldn't make a noticable difference. The reason for using 3rd rail for any new 3 Bridges - Preston Park line would be compatibility with the rest of the network.

As regards the "loss of land" you mention, it may well be a staggeringly stupid thing to have done, but that isn't going to bring it back. From what little I know of Brighton, expansion of the station is pretty much impossible. You'd be better off building new platforms at Hove, though whether there is any demand for more Hove (or West Coastway) - London services is an unknown to me. It would be possible though!

The thing with the Brighton line is the 2 track section from 3 Bridges. Putting Gat-Ex trains on that would just congest it further. If you're not going to 4 track it, and I'd suggest that won't happen without a major shift in political emphasis, the better solution, to my mind, would be to actually get on with Thameslink 2000 so the TL services over that line can be extended to 12 cars, and retaining the dedicated Gatwick services.