Announcement re: commercial pre-release screenshots rule

[jp4712]

Earlier today, Matt promised a 'definitive' response from the UKTS team. Here it is. It's a long story, but it needs telling to show that what seemed to be an arbitrary decision on 1 January in fact had a history stretching back a long way, and to show that the team - however you may disagree what we did and the way we did it - tried to play fair, with the interests of the whole community at heart.

UKTS Statement

Commercial add-on developers have always used the UKTS forums to showcase their products – new routes, stock and so on – and UKTS has been happy to go along with that because by and large, we all know that most of the UK payware authors came out of the freeware community and many are still valued contributors and indeed freeware providers. Strictly speaking, commercial developers should pay to promote their wares on someone else’s website but seeing as it (hopefully) leads to sales of commercial CDs from here, and reskins are a useful resource for the community, that’s fine – so long as the balance between benefit to the site and to the commercial developer is about right.

This situation didn’t suit one commercial add-on developer, Europeanbahn. Now UKTS has no gripe with Europeanbahn, or its developers, as such. Indeed some of its members have been most valued members of this site over the years, and threads with unreasonable/stupid criticism of their work have been policed just as they are for any other product.

However, eighteen months ago the head of Europeanbahn decided that ANY criticism of his products was intolerable and basically said to UKTS ‘if you allow criticism of my products to continue, I will sue you for libel etc.’ This was a very real legal threat, and in response the only possible course of action was to close down the commercial add-on threads and to tread on egg shells for a while. In fact discussion of EB products was completely banned for months, simply because of the potential threat of legal action against the site just through what a forum member might say.

After a while, things calmed down a little and discussion of EB products was allowed again – but always watched closely by moderators for obvious reasons.

Now, to go back to the original point about promotional screenies, a representative of EB started recently to use the forums a lot to promote a forthcoming route. Now as said above everyone does it, and that’s okay so long as the balance is about right. But EB didn’t do ‘free stock Friday’, didn’t upload high-quality reskins, and didn’t pay for advertising on the site. So given that EB had previously threatened legal action if they were criticised in the forums, this came across as ‘EB are allowed to spam the site with promotional screenshots but they won’t give anything back in return and you daren’t offer criticism of what you see for fear of a writ in the post.’

So the decision was made to tell EB that they would no longer be permitted to use the forum in this way. EB’s response was along the lines of ‘well you let everyone else do it, if you stop me alone that’s discrimination and I’ll sue and if I see a single screenie of a pre-release product from another developer after you’ve deleted mine I’ll see you in court.’

Now we were between a rock and a hard place – allow EB to carry on with utter impunity with legal action hanging over our heads, or apply controls to all developers to prevent any accusations of discrimination. We chose the latter route.

If we wound the clock back a couple of weeks, not having the benefit of hindsight, we’d still make that choice again: but we got it very wrong in two ways. First, the threat of imminent legal action meant we had to act fast, and this meant that we didn’t communicate effectively to the other commercial add-on developers, and they were offended at having threads removed and then furious as it became clear to them that – as they saw it, and still do – all were punished for the sins of one. Our second mistake was to make the message to the developers too stark – ‘no using the forum for pre-release screenies’ – without stressing the benefits of what we could offer instead (ie work with us to use the front page of the site, which is seen by the ‘silent majority’ of downloaders who don’t use the forums) – and by confusing the distinction between MIGHT be asked to pay for this and WILL be asked to pay for this. Back to the old quid pro quo, get the balance right between what the site and the developers get out of it about right and we’ll all be happy.

We're sorry we made those mistakes and would like to sincerely apologise to our friends and colleagues at the commercial builders who feel hurt by our actions.

We’ve tried to be fair, and ended up annoying everybody. To some extent it’s a surprise that we annoyed many people who are not affected at all, and it’s disappointing that this has been characterised as a “stupid ruleâ€

[basildd]

This is the wording of the memo we have started to send out to commercial and other respected individuals in order to seek their views and input - Reposted at the request of UKTS

Confidential info release 010106

Association of Commercial Rail Simulation Developers

2006 is destined to be an important milestone for people who are fans of, or are involved with the development of train simulation. Whilst MSTS has continued to serve the community well, it is no secret that it has become ‘ragged’ around the edges and is now struggling to meet the needs of the majority of simulation fans. The introduction of two new simulation systems, TMTS (TrainMaster TrainSim) and KRS (Kuju RailSim), will see the setting of new standards and enhancements that are much anticipated and eagerly awaited!

Not only are the simulators evolving but the developers are too. There are a number of quality rail simulation add-on producers working in the commercial market, in addition to model and utility producers – however, there is currently no outlet for these diverse groups to plan, discuss and promote their work in a central ‘market place’.

We would like to start the ‘ball rolling’ to change that! We are actively seeking interested groups and individuals who meet the criteria for being classified as ‘commercial’, to become part of the Association of Rail Simulation Developers.

What would the ACRSD do that cannot be done already?

We envisage that the ACRSD would be a ‘portal’ for the commercial developers for the future, both for current developers and also for groups setting out. The ‘portal’ would act as a ‘one stop’ community ‘shop window’ for groups /individuals who wish to show off their work, advertise work in progress, discuss plans or seek information, without the restrictions or requirements to comply with sites over which the individual groups have no control. We see the ACRSD as providing a collective community voice – a position from which to enhance and promote train simulation, alongside fellow developers and providers.

We are certainly open to ideas as to what the association should aim to provide but we see it as a department store. Within that store are different departments, each being a group who totally retain their own identity, as now. There would be a community discussion section and forum sections for each group to answer questions. Anything beyond straight forward product questions would see the person directed to the individual groups own forum. Each group section would enable the group to show of their work, talk about what they are doing etc without the need for the casual visitor to go beyond the one site. Of course, the plan is that they will do so and will use the site as a focal point.

There would be a download section, which would enable groups to upload files / trains or other items which promote their commercial work ( examples of this being Re-skins of Blue Arrow products or Making Tracksâ„¢ free stock Friday releases.



Another potential benefit would be a one stop shop where the individual groups could sell their wares, either as packs, or electronic downloads. How much easier would it be for potential customers to be able to obtain their shopping in one place – or at the very least know exactly where to go for it.

Funding for the association would be provided by each group contributing equally to the set up and administration costs.

All such costs would be transparent and the potential saving of combining resources would mean that bandwidth costs and shop costs would be less overall, for everyone concerned. However, you would only buy into whatever you needed.

We also want the Association to provide a ‘platform’ for commercial discussions between groups, so that we work very much together - rather than in opposition. The market is big enough for everyone and everyone has their own ‘niche’. We would envisage that the association would also generate ‘press releases’, which would be sent to community sites such as UKTS and linked to a press page, in order to meet the requirements of such sites.

So who is ‘commercial’? Our interpretation of commercial is any team who has produced or is in the process of producing any Train sim / related add-on which is sold for profit where the distributor/Team are the only benefactors. Membership would be by invitation, based on a proven track record which would not bring the association into disrepute. We also would like to encourage the developers of the future and so would operate a ‘grace’ period whereby serious potential developers would be involved.

We are very much at the planning stage at the moment, so if you have any suggestions or ideas, they will be most welcome. We would like this to work to everyone’s advantage, no matter if you are building the simulator or providing routes and utilities for them. A Community Association would work well for everyone and we want it to work for you too!

Whilst we see this as a UK based Association, it is there to promote to and serve the community as a whole and as such, we would welcome developers from elsewhere – in fact anywhere!

Please let us know your thoughts on this.

Best regards,



Dale Stewart
Product Manager, MakingTracksâ„¢

pp Tim Court / Dave Babb

[leezer3]

While you have my full backing at this moment, please continue being so honest
I believe that some of this has been a snowball effect from the events discussed in the other thread, and that we can only continue onwards by being as open, honest and frank as this, otherwise the mistrust will continue to ferment.

Well done.

Chris Lees

[barrybryce01475]

I think this is an appropriate way to resolve the issue; those who don't like the community and wish to exclude themselves from one part of it need to exclude themselves from more savoury parts too. People that want to play tought can get out there in the big bad world and look after themselves, they can't have it both ways.

I for one promise that I will not post libellous comments about their products on the forums...

In your shoes, I'd have told them to get to Hull, but that's easy to say when I wasn't personally worried about incurring the hassle, worry and cost.

Either way, you've done the right thing now, congratulations and thank you.

... just seen the MT post - I could swear it wasn't there a moment ago, but I saw the one after it!

I like this idea. The commercial market has matured, and it is, or should now be at the stage where it can do things like that. I'd have concerns about the working of it though - not all developers may allow constructive discussion of their work.

[buffy500]

I like this idea. The commercial market has matured, and it is, or should now be at the stage where it can do things like that. I'd have concerns about the working of it though - not all developers may allow constructive discussion of their work.

They will if they want to be part of the association.
It's goal is to improve the image and try and standardise the behaviour of commercial groups.
There is no room for someone who is not going to act professionally in this association.

Also by having it on a different site people have a choice as to if they wish to be involved in hearing about Commercial stuff. People will now be able to opt in or out as they like.
Hopefully we can keep at least the news summaries in 'one place' to save people running around 3 or 4 sites.

[mickoo]

not all developers may allow constructive discussion of their work.

True but then the association could then take those aside and discuss there perhaps unreasonable stance, internal discussions could be held to see if they felt everyone agreed they were being intransient. Any displeasure about constructive critism would then be uniformed from the whole. The critism would be leveled at the Association not the singular and no one wants to be responsible for letting the side down.

Personally l dont think many now worry too much about constructive critism, its here to stay, its a fact of life, just deal with it, to be blunt a lot is personally subjective, the number of heated debates in the past have shown that it generally leads to nothing, most commercial teams know this and in fairness most customers and regualr users know this too, there are more eloquent ways to get your point across other than its a P.O.S.

Best

Michael

[AndiS]

I think it is a good move to take the discussion of payware to a separate site where the responsibilities are clear.

It will take a lot of pressure from Matt. The association can never be sued for not promoting products from non-members.

Regarding conflict resolution, my first thought was "good luck" but reading about high quality standards etc. it is clear to me that you will succeed in keeping the constructive side up.
I hope you win a wide range of contributors.

[johndibben]

I've lost the plot completely now.

We've an apology which isn't required followed by a strange announcement of some association offering a 'one stop shop' run by who knows to promote and sell commercial add-ons.

Given I was told off for making connections earlier I'm loathed to do so again but here they are in the same thread.

UKTS has always been a one stop shop. Goodness knows what it is now.

Leaving that aside, it's clear the threat of legal action was presumed and not actual and stemmed from a discussion in the past.

I never noticed the EB screenshots along with all the others and had no complaint nor had I heard any. I took any appearance of EB screenshots as a sign of improved relations and old arguments set aside. Someone took offence and that produced these rules based on past events.

Someone doesn't want peace.

I knew of the old threats and they wern't taken as seriously then as they were recently which is strange.

These matters can't be talked about openly yet that's precisely what we're doing.

There's no sense in this and clear contradictions.

The most clear statement is that some commercials will only offer freeware and discuss matters under their direct control. We're to have standards set by who knows yet we the users differ in our preferences. I enjoy good frame rates. These standards will limited that choice. This is a coalition which won't accept all unless their standards are met. That's elitism pure and simple.

My vision of the future of new sims included this from day one.

With the commercials unhappy with the present situation off with their association, I suggest EB returns to UKTS along with any other commercial prepared to work with UKTS which would be the situation most had no problem with until someone decided they had.

Of course I could be completely wrong and this association includes or replaces UKTS.

Confusion is heaped on confusion with the two issues in the same thread.

Rome has started, I've a nice glass of Merlot and I'm off to enjoy it

Celebrity Big Brother still beats this for wackyness but not by much

Cheers

John

[mickoo]

Cant see the confusion at all, some wanted commericals out of or seperated from UKTS, commercials responded by doing just that, rather than withdrawing to there own bolt holes they joined together as a unified voice.

There are two one stop shops, freeware ( UKTS ), payware ( ACRSD ), you want to find out about freeware you come here, you want to find out about payware, you go there. Dare l say simpler than 1+1 ?.

My parting word would be...give it a chance...you might actually like whats going to happen.

Best

Michael

[calvert]

Well done to all!

Now may we all keep an openm mind!

[buffy500]

UKTS has always been a one stop shop. Goodness knows what it is now.

Sorry John, you've been here far too long to not have noticed that as time has gone on, there is an anti commercial feeling on the forum from *some* member, which has been growing almost by the month.
Almost no commercial thread can survive without degenerating into a complete flamewar. ( as you well know ! )
Trying to keep the two parties living together has proven impossible.
What would you suggest thats not been tried in the past ?
I'm all out of ideas.

Matt has tried all along to be independant while helping people out with things where possible. I think this is a tightrope that has proved impossible to not fall off.
I'd suggest that by distancing the commercial teams a bit, any cooperation can be done with preagreed mutual benifits, so that no one can turn it round and use it as a weapon against anyone else at a later date.
Matt has things/skills we could use, and we have things which could benifit Matt / UKTS.

[barrybryce01475]

'Anti commercialism' is something that shouldn't be permitted.

As much as the community has brought a lot to the commercial side, the commercial side brings plenty back to the community.

Bearing this in mind, I would like to see them exist together. I wonder if the solution above would actually end up becoming this in the long run?

[johndibben]

Sorry Dave, as you're one who enjoys UKTS, I don't want to fight over this and will only say seperate commercial forums exist already for discussion and anti-payware sentiments have all but disappeared on UKTS as far as I'd noticed. Indeed it's positively popular with praise from all quarters.

The one stop shop referred to the sale of commercial and £4.50 add-ons through UKTS. Is that to continue?

Any criticism of all but EB products can be ignored or dealt with by mods.

Even that was a presumed threat based on a conversation a while ago.

I don't want commercials to leave. They're an intregal part of the community. I've been assured some will stay in some capacity and welcome them as friends.

I'm sure your skins are thick enough to handle anything by now

Like everything lately from forum rules to the EB thing, I see this is a sledgehammer to crack a nut

Cheers

John

[RobertM]

I wouldn't of done anything diffrent, it was a hard decision to make, and to be honest I doubt even I could of made that sort of decission

And I think I speek for everyone when I say 'sorry Matt'

RobertM

[buffy500]

Sorry Dave, as you're one who enjoys UKTS, I don't want to fight over this and will only say seperate commercial forums exist already for discussion and anti-payware sentiments have all but disappeared on UKTS as far as I'd noticed. Indeed it's positively popular with praise from all quarters.

And how does anything today change any of that ?
Might make it easier to find all the other forums that people almost across the board did not want here anymore.

The one stop shop referred to the sale of commercial and £4.50 add-ons through UKTS. Is that to continue?

Nothing MT have done changes any of that in anyway. And are we not entitled to sell products for ourself, just as many other people have been doing for 12 months ?

I'm sure your skins are thick enough to handle anything by now

They are, but maybe I'm just getting hacked off with listening to the same thing every week ? You know me, I will not back down from any conversation. When you've fronted up to someone with a shot gun or gone looking for someone with a sword, not much on a forum is going to stop me.
I go out on duty and get sworn at by drunks on a every other weekend, and am expected to do far more than walk away from it.
Does that mean I am not allowed to ever get fed up hearing the samething ? After so long would I be wrong to maybe change the shift I do to get a bit less of it. Especially as a guest I am not free to say exactly what I feel.
You now know what its like to post with a hand tied behind your back. Welcome to my world !