copyright on trainsim cd`s

solentskipper · Post by **solentskipper** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 9:55 pm

can we have a definate answer on the copy right issue what i want to know is if i buy a freeware cd rom from ukts is it my property as if i had bought a book say from a bookshop, i dont want to do anything wrong but if that cd is my property can i dispose of it in any way i like when i no longer use it?
i ask as one who is very grateful for the work our route designers do but all i want to know if i buy a route from UKTS and as in some cases as over time i have bought a number of routes i have either up dated as from raubon to ruabon barmouth to now bala hub or no longer use as north west trains tallyn etc if having paid a fiver for most of them and i stick them on e-bay or even in my local post office ad board am i breaking the law if i flog em for a couple of quid each if somebody wants to pay me for them ??
the only other alternative is to dump em in the bin which seems a bit daft to me.
thoughts please
solent skipper

Website · Post by **Easilyconfused** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 10:32 pm

I will pick my words carefully here since this is a delicate subject

I see what you are saying from a waste / recycling point of view about old CDs but how many discarded MSTS route CDs are out there compared to the dreaded AOL / Tiscali CDs given away by the crate load each month by computer magazines ?

Anyone who has access to Ebay has access here to buy CDs. If they buy them here then as far as I understand it they get a month premium membership per CD. I stand to be corrected on this but my membership gets extended each time I buy a CD. With this membership they can download more activities for the route and the required stock for said activities from the site easily.

I am not a lawyer but as far as I understand it if you resell most software products you can only do so if you have uninstalled the software from your PC. In the case you raise of superceded software - why would anyone want to buy old routes that have been extended / updated ? That strikes me as sort of unethical - no offence intended but that is the way I see it.

In the case of routes you bought and don't want anymore then I guess (again - I am not a lawyer) that you can provided you delete it all from your PC first it is OK. Again the same question comes up - if a buyer can pay Â£4.50 for a route here and get a month premium access then what is the incentive to buy from you at the same or higher price ? We know some people will pay over the odds on auction sites but should we really be encouraging this ?

The other big question mark is the original readme files - what do they say you can do ? Some state that the route is not for resale etc.

solentskipper · Post by **solentskipper** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 11:12 pm

i take your well thought out points but i was careful if i stick em on e bay or the local notice i woud not do it for profit ive had my enjoyment out of them i meant what i said id be asking the price of a blank cd at most 2 quid but if the general consensus is im doing something i shouldnt ill scrap them as this community is better than a few cd Roms any one else all views are welcomed
solent skipper

ianmacmillan · Post by **ianmacmillan** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 12:51 am

I give my outdated CDs free to anyone who has MSTS and has never realised that you can get additional routes and stock for it.

I also make sure they have the URL for this site.

Take them along to your local model shop or preserved railway and introduce people to this wonderful hobby.

Remember that the CDs are free. You pay for the work done to make them and dispatch them as well as the months free access.

jbilton · Post by **jbilton** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 2:32 am

I think selling them for charity has been accepted by some of the route authors.....but not all.

boeing126 · Post by **boeing126** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 6:52 am

I have kept all my C.Ds that i have bought from U.K.T.S. although a couple of them are now out of date.The thing about giving them away is that i dont want to risk somebody copying them and flogging em off for a quid each at some boot sale.I am from Yorkshire so we tend not to "give owt away for nowt" I am still wearing a pair of wellies i bought in 1957.

bigvern · Post by **bigvern** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 8:24 am

The view of my CD service is that you are paying for the cost of material and postage to supply the FREE routes on a personal basis (this includes a Â£1.00 service charge made by SW Reg and 70p for VAT which Customs & Excise insist is required). In the case of UKTS, you get a months membership thrown in. The service is provided instead of requiring those who want the routes having to download, or sending their own CD and return P&P to me. So you are certainly not "buying" the routes in the strictest sense of the word.

The EULA for my routes clearly states that they must not be sold on, either via decompilation into another package or the original CD - which should either be kept for backup purposes or discarded if no longer required. All CD's I send out now clearly carry a "Not for Re-Sale" warning too.

Even if I was to agree the re-sale of CD's (and I'm always prepared to listen if someone wants to raise money for charity) then the cost should certainly be no more than that of supply - less the SW Reg charge, VAT, and original P&P. i.e. somewhere in the region of Â£1.50 - Â£2.00.

I have not spent many hours creating my routes (nor the artists who have contributed scenery and rolling stock items) and making freely available to the community for someone else to decide they will profit off them. I should add that PC software in general is not really supposed to be sold on (though of course it happens). You are not buying the software, simply a licence to install it on one computer. That is why shops like Game and MVC will accept part exchange on console games, DVD's etc. but not PC software nor will they sell 2ndhand PC software.

boeing126 · Post by **boeing126** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 10:02 am

To be fare i think all c.d.s should be binned when not wanted anymore that would make sure the original buyer doesnt have any comebacks re copyright that could happen if they were given to a third party.Just dont ask me to bin my old Wellies.

Neptune50006 · Post by **Neptune50006** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 12:49 pm

boeing126 wrote:Just dont ask me to bin my old Wellies.

If you've been wearing them since 1957 they will probably have to be surgically removed now

Horgy · Post by **Horgy** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 8:29 pm

You could always send em back to UKTS for resale if they are fairly new..

Horgy

boeing126 · Post by **boeing126** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 8:33 pm

Horgy do you mean my c.ds or my wellies?

nwallace · Post by **nwallace** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 9:59 pm

is it my property as if i had bought a book say from a bookshop

Read the first pages of a book and you will find you only own the right to read it.

The questionable part is passing it on and depends on what the front of the book says,

For example:

Code: Select all

This book is sold subject to the conditions that it shall not, by way of trade or otherwise, be lent, resold, hired out, or otherwise circulated without the publuishers prior consent in any form of binding or cover other than that in which it is published and without a similar condition including this condition being imposed on the subsequent purchaser.

Taken from the Red Fox imprint of Arthur Ransoms "The picts and the martyrs"

First published Jonathan Cape 1943
Pufin edition 1971
Red Fox 1993
(c) Arthur Ransome 1943

What this means is that, you can not legally the book on.

The author copyright is 1943 so it will become legit for Project Guthenberg in 2042.... but only if copied from the Jonathan Cape edition.

Quite Simply, if you don't hold the copyright (which is something you are automatically entitled to when you create soemthing) you do not own it and unless you buy the rights you never will. (after copyright has lapsed it enters Public Domain)

Considering the age of many of the freeware creators your looking at well over a centuary before this happens.

dwv1968 · Post by **dwv1968** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 10:23 pm

nwallace wrote:
is it my property as if i had bought a book say from a bookshop
Read the first pages of a book and you will find you only own the right to read it.

The questionable part is passing it on and depends on what the front of the book says,

For example:
Code: Select all
This book is sold subject to the conditions that it shall not, by way of trade or otherwise, be lent, resold, hired out, or otherwise circulated without the publuishers prior consent in any form of binding or cover other than that in which it is published and without a similar condition including this condition being imposed on the subsequent purchaser.
Taken from the Red Fox imprint of Arthur Ransoms "The picts and the martyrs"

First published Jonathan Cape 1943
Pufin edition 1971
Red Fox 1993
(c) Arthur Ransome 1943

What this means is that, you can not legally the book on.

Not quite! What it means is that you can't lend, resell, hire out or circulate the book in any form of binding or cover other than that which it is published, and even then you must impose the same condition on the person you sell it to.

The position with pc software is even more complicated. Basically when you buy a piece of software you are given a licence to use it on your pc (this is the EULA that Vern refers to). You are then only permitted to do what the license says you can do, and if you breach the licence you are liable to prosecution and/or a claim from the author of the software.

However, provided that you don't keep a copy of the software, either on your pc or on CD etc, it does appear that under the existing copyright laws you are able to sell it to a third party. I know that Vern makes it a term of his EULA that the software cannot be sold, but I must admit that I'm not sure how enforceable this would be.

To be honest, I'm also not sure what can be done about breaches of licences for freeware. Techincally the author of the software could bring a claim for damages, but if the software is freeware, what loss has the author suffered? As for getting the police involved, unless its a major pirating operation, I wouldn't have thought that they would get involved.

nwallace · Post by **nwallace** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 10:30 pm

yeah read it wrong... and allways have... logic failure.

Baseball bats are a much cheaper and threatening way of enforcing your property protection.

spikeyorks · Post by **spikeyorks** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 10:37 pm

if the general consensus is im doing something i shouldnt ill scrap them as this community is better than a few cd Roms

This is the simplest, most sensible, way of looking at this. If, for your Â£4.50, you have used the product purchased and then had a month's free membership with UKTS then surely you have had good value for money.

What is the point of selling on the product (for next to no gain) and risking alienating the hard working creators of the routes / stock / activities etc.

As the original quote implies...surely the "good of the community" is more important than a couple of quid ?????