Terrain Made in Gmax ??

PaulSpringthorpe · Post by **PaulSpringthorpe** » Sat Oct 23, 2004 12:18 pm

Hi everyone,

I noticed that the latest version of 3d Studio Max 7 will make terrain out of terrain contour splines. I imported some DXF splines into the program made the terrain then exported it in dxf form to GMAX.

Now my question is.............can this terrain be used in MSTS instead of the stuff we make using TStools and Route Editor ??? I thought it would be really nice to do the texturing and make cuttings and embankments in Gmax, maybe even add fencing etc then export as an object to MSTS.
Maybe this is a really stupid idea ??? Anyway I would be really interested to know what problems would arise. Perhaps there would be too many faces/polygons to be exported, perhaps this technique would only suit a small route. The main thing making me look for another technique is that I really hate those wide jagged edged cuttings and embankments that Route Editor gives. I also get sick of the myriad of tools and techniques required as well. (Basically I keep failing to produce anything in Route Editor because it doesn't look the way I want it to)

BTW 3D Studio Max 7 is about $3500 but can be used free for 30 days. So basically you need to make your terrain quickly and get it exported to Gmax. I'm sure there will be some secret files or registry entries that will prevent it being installed for a second time.

Thanks

Regards
Paul

JADsHome · Post by **JADsHome** » Sat Oct 23, 2004 1:02 pm

I would have expected anything out put from any 3d package to become a scenery object but not terrain - simply because unless someone has created an export widget the files (certainly from GMAX) will be .s files which are held in the shapes dir where terrain tiles (.t ?) are written into the tiles dir

PaulSpringthorpe · Post by **PaulSpringthorpe** » Sat Oct 23, 2004 1:20 pm

Hi

I'm sure you're correct about the *.s objects export rather real terrain *.t objects. However since many people make embankments and cuttings with *.s files I wonder if the whole scenery could be done that way ?? I know by observation that one problem would be that shadows don't display on *.s objects, but I'd rather have that than have the jagged embankments etc. I thought it might be nice to get everything done in Gmax as well rather than using the myriad of technques that we use at present ?? I was also hoping that a new technqiue like this might give better results since M$ aren't bringing out a revised version of MSTS.

Cheers

Paul

JADsHome wrote:I would have expected anything out put from any 3d package to become a scenery object but not terrain - simply because unless someone has created an export widget the files (certainly from GMAX) will be .s files which are held in the shapes dir where terrain tiles (.t ?) are written into the tiles dir

longbow · Post by **longbow** » Sat Oct 23, 2004 1:24 pm

Even assuming you could manipulate the MSTS terrain mesh with something friendlier than RE, you'd still be stuck with mesh points with the same orientation and distance apart, so you would not escape the problem of jagged cuttings and embankments.

The alternative is to make terrain as scenic objects with any of the 3D modelling programs, as witnessed by the embankments, cuttings and rock formations that increasingly appear in routes these days. This does not need a lot of polys.

nwallace · Post by **nwallace** » Sat Oct 23, 2004 2:20 pm

If you created a terrain as a shape,
a) It would be a bloody big shape
and
b) It might prove difficult to keep the track on your shape terrain.

I had thought about it in the past.

I think if your creating say a block of scenery terrain to go beside the track ie cuttings then your going to get a better efect than just cutting with RE but for large areas of actual terrain i think its going to be a bit of effort for little or no benefit.

timbooth · Post by **timbooth** » Sat Oct 23, 2004 2:57 pm

The terrain 'mesh' in MSTS is part of the game engine so you can't improve the resolution.

In theory, you could create a 2048mx2048m scenic terrain shape that is placed over the (hidden) tile terrain.

However, the following issues may arise:

Building the terrain to match the track would be hard work.
The terrain shape may disappear from certain viewing angles, though smaller terrain shapes may fix that (eg. 1024x1024, 512x512, etc).
Alignment of terrain shapes at tile edges needs to be precise to avoid gaps
There would be no texture noise that default terrain has.

You would though have the advantage of being able to add scenic items to the terrain to save tile counts, LOD levels could be used to good effect, and of course better resolution trackbeds.

IMHO its better to just build scenic objects just to cover the embankment/cutting - you can then set the terrain bias to 2x or greater as you don't need high terrain resolution. You can also use the same method for rivers, canals, or other formations which are restricted by the terrain grid.

Also, with more advanced 'MSTS compatible' simulators on the way I wouldn't waste any time on alternative terrain for MSTS - these should offer better terrain resolution, as its one of the main gripes of MSTS.

alan2 · Post by **alan2** » Sat Oct 23, 2004 10:42 pm

look at bala hub.

There are some embankments on the route which are scenery objects.

use default terrain and have your track on the 3d model. (just use Auto gantry to place the objects in-line with your track.

?

PaulSpringthorpe · Post by **PaulSpringthorpe** » Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:56 am

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for your input. I thought there would be some serious complications. The scenery object is very easy to make with 3D Studio but I thought I'd better check on likely issues before wasting a lot of time taking the idea further.

Cheers

Paul

alan2 · Post by **alan2** » Mon Oct 25, 2004 1:08 am

have you tried using the dem data that was found.

(I have found that quite smooth) then ifyou find that not to your liking just overlay some of it with the 3dlandscape model

PaulSpringthorpe · Post by **PaulSpringthorpe** » Mon Oct 25, 2004 9:05 am

Hi Alan,

I bought two tiles of 10m resolution DXF data (At great expense !!!) However these tiles cover several small routes that I am interested in.
The scenery looks smooth. However its the cuttings and embankments that really trouble me. The problem is that now they annoy me I just focus in on them. I was trying to find an alternative method of construction before I put in a lot of work in RE.
Naturally my old computer with the work on blew up. I backed the data up but naturally neither RE nor TStools2 will read it on my new computer so I'll have to re-build the scenery in TST2 . Since I'm having to start again I thought I'd seek advice on the alternative of using terrain as a scenery object rather than the mesh used by RE

It seems that mesh plus embankment and cutting models seems the way to go. Also the scenery gets 'distorted' in RE compared to the OS co-ordinate system that gets plotted in gmax from the DXF data so cutting embankments out of this scenery to place into RE won't be straight forward.

Many thanks.

Regards
Paul

alan2 wrote:have you tried using the dem data that was found.

(I have found that quite smooth) then ifyou find that not to your liking just overlay some of it with the 3dlandscape model

JADsHome · Post by **JADsHome** » Mon Oct 25, 2004 9:52 am

You can download free DEM data for the entire UK here... http://data.geocomm.com/catalog/UK/group121.html though possibly the resolution may not quite be what you are after - for cheapskates like me its spot on

I did download some other free stuff but can't remember where I got it now

qzdcg8 · Post by **qzdcg8** » Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:54 am

JADsHome wrote:You can download free DEM data for the entire UK here... http://data.geocomm.com/catalog/UK/group121.html though possibly the resolution may not quite be what you are after - for cheapskates like me its spot on
I did download some other free stuff but can't remember where I got it now

I have the whole UK if you can't find it - PM me the location you want.

Incidentally, the file format of the _raw files is not that complicated (once you understand how the T file affects it) - so programmatic creation of terrain isn't too difficult

peterholton · Post by **peterholton** » Mon Oct 25, 2004 4:11 pm

Paul: if you have Photoshop, it's possible to open the raw terrain data from MSTS, which is saved as a 256 x 256 x 16bit greyscale bitmap, re-sample and save it as an 8-bit greyscale bitmap.
This can then be used as a displacement map, and, with a little manipulation, can make terrain models that can accurately line up with existing terrain: I used this method to make Corfe Castle.

Peter

PaulSpringthorpe · Post by **PaulSpringthorpe** » Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:30 pm

Hi Peter,

That sounds a really good construction method. It might just be the solution I'm after.

I'll have to take a look at your route when its available

Many thanks.

Regards
Paul

peterholton wrote:Paul: if you have Photoshop, it's possible to open the raw terrain data from MSTS, which is saved as a 256 x 256 x 16bit greyscale bitmap, re-sample and save it as an 8-bit greyscale bitmap.
This can then be used as a displacement map, and, with a little manipulation, can make terrain models that can accurately line up with existing terrain: I used this method to make Corfe Castle.

Peter

PaulSpringthorpe · Post by **PaulSpringthorpe** » Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:34 pm

Hi,

Thanks for that. A good source of data. Free is nice !!

Regards
Paul

JADsHome wrote:You can download free DEM data for the entire UK here... http://data.geocomm.com/catalog/UK/group121.html though possibly the resolution may not quite be what you are after - for cheapskates like me its spot on
I did download some other free stuff but can't remember where I got it now