Help ! true weight .wag files and couplings

[maxtedrw]

Help !
I am being driven to dispair trying to make my modified .eng and .wag files (modified to make weights etc close to original) couple to each other.

Every time i think i have got close to fix the whole thing goes unstable on me. My test is front coupler to loose consist. What puzzles me is that the sim doesn't seem to be consistent. I can get a fix that works in the evening and next day it won't. Has anybody else tried to use 6t locos and 1t wagons rather than the x2 50t weights ?

Its quite frustrating as everything else is pretty "right" feeling I just can't get the things to behave nicely. I am using all of the tricks on the postings (cntl+, update) etc. What I am really needing is a way of calculating the values I need. Or is it just guess work. What seems to happen is the larger the values the more "bouncy" everything is and the lower the values the harder it is to couple up. Is it simply that at close to true NG weights the physics of the sim simply don't work?

If all else fails then I shall just go back to the original .eng files and .wag files and abonden the whole project. Shame though.

BTW - this reads perhaps like a winge at the very very cool designers - it isn't chaps. Its just that I started wondering if I could make .eng files that ran out of water and coal at the right place and used data from the web as sources.

Any hints very very gratefully recieved.

[kevmt]

When I made my first NG loco (Prince, over 2 years ago) I did try to use all the correct values in the eng file but could never get it to work. In the end I concluded that MSTS physics were designed for an average Std gauge locomotive and just will not work with the sort of locos I wished to make.

Cheers
Kevin

[pitleyfalley]

Like Kevin I have played around for a couple of years now with the eng and wag files. Basically MSTS isnt designed for real life values to work in the sim. Especially not with narrow gauge. The game engine (what interprets the values you put into the eng or wag file) doesnt use proper values, and say copying all the values for a certain engine across wouldnt result in something that resembled the real life loco in the slightest. (trust me ive tried it!)

What I suggest you do, if you want something that is a little different from the bulk of the locos, is to take the eng file on whichever loco you are using, and alter it slightly to suit your needs.

May I also suggest using the rear coupler? Front coupling in MSTS even on narrow gauge with the patch from the MSTS site, (narrow gauge seems to couple better than standard gauge for some reason!) is still problematic at times.

Lastly, it is sometimes easier to test it all on a specific test route that you have built yourself... it allows for your own gradient profiles and trackwork that you want.

Hope this is of help

Christian

[sp762]

You might find this thread helpful:

http://forums.atomic-systems.com/viewtopic.php?t=15050

I had very similar problems (and still do have.) My usual recourse is to mick a wag file that I know to be working, then adjust that rather than start from scratch every time.

Having said that, if you have better wag and eng files for my stock, I'd be more than happy for you to release them (or send them to me at least!)

Cheers

Mike

[maxtedrw]

I think I have cracked it !!

I managed to get Irish mail (@6t) and ruggas (0.33t) to work together as an activity with the ruggas as a loose consist coupling up to the front of the loco.

There does seem to be an issue depending on the start direction. (. ascii fig..)

----Y-----Loco (facing --->)
I-----Ruggas

so the loco backs over the Y point, then foward to connect to the ruggas with the front coupler. It has a tendancy to run through the wagons. However, if

Loco (--->)-----Y------
I-----Ruggas

The loco does all the right things.
If in the first instance if the initial nudge on the ruggas is gentle and then reverse to pull away all is well.

But anyway the point of this was to ask if anybody wants to check these out and give opinions. The files are for x2 scale. I have files for Irish Mail, ruggas, southwold stock, FR coaches, tallylyn stock (not coaches as I can't find the Tares weights yet), Daucaville, Hunslet 2-6-0

I have mananged to get the tank, bunker etc use seeming sort of right, the steam production seems to be used in a sensible way along with the dimensions of the boiler and cylinders. The locos still seem a tad powerful to me (esp the Hunslet) but I am still working out how to degrade the top speed and pull away power without trashing the steam usage. There is also a bit of cheat as I have lowered the steam use onthe vac brakes (my book says that vac brakes consumed a lot of steam) just cos I got fed up with the injectors noise all the time !!!!

The files work in both AI fireman and manual mode. I quite like them as I have to drive the things with stuff to do and using different injector rates on different power needs.

I don't really want to upload the files as I am no expert and would like some second opinions. Any takers ? e-mail me at richard.maxted@environment-agency.gov.uk if you are interested as my home connection is down till I get SP1 for XP. (i know, i know!)

Also what is the rules about using other peoples bits and bobs. I have made a narrow gauge cab for my locos using controls I found on the web from a German loco. I think that people might like it but they are nicked from that cab. Also some wagons painted using the wonderful steel textures from the Talyllyn stock, are they uploadable or just for my own only ?

cheers R

[kevmt]

:Also what is the rules about using other peoples bits and bobs. I have made a narrow gauge cab for my locos using controls I found on the web from a German loco. I think that people might like it but they are nicked from that cab. Also some wagons painted using the wonderful steel textures from the Talyllyn stock, are they uploadable or just for my own only ?

cheers R

The usual "rules" are that you should contact (by e-mail) any author whose work you are making use of, and ask for there ok to use it.
It's also advisable to send then a copy of the files you are thinking of uploading so that they can try them out first.

Cheers
Kevin

[mgreenland]

Hi Maxted and everyone,

I think I have got somewhere close to the loose consist problem. I based all my loose couplings on the values given with the FR slate wagons and they seem to work for me on all wagons between 0.5t and at least up to 12t. A copy of a rugga is given below. Sorry about the coupling 'Break' values. I just got fed up with breakages. Also a copy of my .eng file for Palmerston which is typical of the sort of things I do to .eng files, for anyones info. (I am quite pleased with my .eng files which may not have all the 'correct' numbers in them concerning the boiler but at least give reasonable firing and injector experiences! I have given the whole file so you should be able to copy it over and try it out). If anyone wants to know why I have used a certain value, just ask. My real gripe with .eng files is the regulator. It doesn't mimic the actualite at all e.g. in real life at slowish speeds and small cut-offs opening a regulator from half to full often has no effect at all because the cylinders are already getting all they need through the half opened valve. Also at starting the delay effect of getting the steam pipes, superheater headers and steam chests up to pressure, which then drops as the pistons move, is a very complex mathematical modelling procedure - even Brian Attwell sidestepped that one although in other respects his regulator was very well modelled. Any way, don't get me started on that. I doubt whether MSTS 2 will get close to an accurate regulator!

SIMISA@@@@@@@@@@JINX0D0t______

Wagon ( ukngRugga1
Type ( Freight )
WagonShape ( ukngRugga1.s )

Size ( 2.6m 2.25m 4.4m )
Mass ( 0.5t )
WheelRadius ( 0.762m )
InertiaTensor ( Box ( 2.6m 2.25m 4.4m ) )
Coupling (
Type ( Chain )
Spring (
Stiffness ( 1e1N/m 1e6N/m )
Damping ( 1e4N/m/s 1e7N/m/s )
Break ( 1e27N 1e27N )
r0 ( 5cm 15cm )
)
)

BrakeEquipmentType( "Handbrake, vacuum_brake" )
BrakeSystemType( "Vacuum_single_pipe" )
MaxBrakeForce( 0N )

MaxHandbrakeForce( 35N )
NumberOfHandbrakeLeverSteps( 100 )

MaxReleaseRate( 8 )
MaxApplicationRate( 8 )
BrakeCylinderPressureForMaxBrakeBrakeForce( 21 )

Adheasion ( 0.2 0.4 2 0 )
DerailRailHeight ( 10cm )
DerailRailForce ( 2.5*0.5t )
DerailBufferForce ( 1000kN )
NumWheels ( 4 )
Friction (
85N/m/s 0 1mph 2.6 1.8
5.1N/rad/s 1 -1rad/s 0 1
)


Sound ( "uk-swb-unfit-wag01.sms" )
)


SIMISA@@@@@@@@@@JINX0D0t______

Wagon ( palmerston
comment( ? )
Type ( Engine )
WagonShape ( palmerston.s )
Size ( 3m 4.3m 10m )
CentreOfGravity ( 0m 1.7m 0m )
Centre ( 0m 0m 0m )
Mass ( 12.19t )
InertiaTensor ( Box(3m 4m 9.3m ) )
Coupling (
Type ( Bar )
Spring (
Stiffness ( 1e7N/m 1e7N/m )
Damping ( 1e7N/m/s 1e7N/m/s )
Break ( 7e7N 7e7N )
r0 ( 10cm 30cm )
)
CouplingHasRigidConnection ()
Velocity (0.1m/s)
CouplingUniqueType (palmerston)
)
Coupling (
Type ( chain )
Spring (
Stiffness ( 0.8e6N/m 0.8e6N/m )
Damping ( 0.8e6N/m/s 0.8e6N/m/s )
Break ( 5.1e7N 5.1e7N )
r0 ( 40cm 60cm )
)
Centre ( 0.5 )
Radius ( 1 )
Angle ( 0.5deg )

)

Adheasion ( 0.1 0.38 0.33 0 )
DerailRailHeight ( 8cm )
DerailRailForce ( 240kN )
DerailBufferForce ( 800kN )
WheelRadius ( 0.4825m )
NumWheels ( 2 )
Friction (
300N/m/s 0 1mph 4.08 1.8
5.1N/rad/s 1 -1rad/s 0 1
)

BrakeEquipmentType( "Vacuum_brake, Handbrake" )
BrakeSystemType( "Vacuum_single_pipe" )
MaxBrakeForce( 0.6*12.19kN )

MaxHandbrakeForce( 12.19kN )
NumberOfHandbrakeLeverSteps( 100 )

MaxReleaseRate( 8 )
MaxApplicationRate( 8 )
BrakeCylinderPressureForMaxBrakeBrakeForce( 21 )

Inside (
PassengerCabinFile ( palmerston.s )
PassengerCabinHeadPos ( 1.9 4.0 -5.0 )
RotationLimit ( 40 180 0 )
StartDirection ( 0 0 0 )

)

Sound ( "..\\..\\common.sound\\2cyl_generic\\2c-140c-engpas01.sms" )

Lights ( 3
Light (
comment( Sphere of light )
Type ( 1 )
Conditions (
Headlight ( 3 )
Unit ( 2 )
)
Cycle ( 0 )
FadeIn ( 0.5 )
FadeOut ( 0.5 )
States ( 1
State (
Duration ( 0.0 )
LightColour ( 20ffffff )
Position ( 0 2.5 15 )
Transition ( 0 )
Radius ( 80.0 )
Angle ( 13.0 )

)
)
)
Light (
comment( Head light right dim )
Type ( 0 )
Conditions (
Headlight ( 3 )
Unit ( 2 )
)
FadeIn ( 0.5 )
FadeOut ( 0.5 )
Cycle ( 0 )
States ( 1
State (
Duration ( 0.0 )
LightColour ( 99ffffff )
Position ( -1.29334 1.5151 6.27799 )
Azimuth ( 0.0 -5.0 5.0 )
Transition ( 0 )
Radius ( 0.4 )
Elevation ( -10 -10 -10 )
)
)
)
Light (
comment( Head light left dim )
Type ( 0 )
Conditions (
Headlight ( 3 )
Unit ( 2 )
)
FadeIn ( 0.5 )
FadeOut ( 0.5 )
Cycle ( 0 )
States ( 1
State (
Duration ( 0.0 )
LightColour ( 99ffffff )
Position ( 1.29346 1.5151 6.27799 )
Azimuth ( 0.0 -5.0 5.0 )
Transition ( 0 )
Radius ( 0.4 )
Elevation ( -10 -10 -10 )
)
)
)
)
)


Engine ( palmerston
comment( ? )
Effects
(
SteamSpecialEffects
(
comment
(
the format of these little blocks is as follow:

offset.x offset.y offset.z
normal.x normal.y normal.z
width in metres

defining the offset from the shape pivot point
where steam / smoke should appear, the direction
it should go and the width of the nozzle
)

WhistleFX
(
0.13 4.39 -1.37
0 1 0
0.05
)

SafetyValvesFX
(
0 4.1 .39
0 1 0
0.2
)

StackFX
(
0 4.9 2.75
0 1 0
0.15
)




DrainpipeFX
(
-1.5 1.258 -4.306
-0.4 -1 -0.2
0.05
)

CylindersFX
(
-1.14 0.41 3.81
0 0 1
0.1
)
CylindersFX
(
1.14 0.41 3.81
0 0 1
0.1
)


)


)


Wagon ( palmerston )
IsTenderRequired( 1 )
Type ( Steam )
MaxPower ( 153kW )
MaxForce ( 4064lbf )
MaxVelocity ( 36mph )
WheelRadius ( 0.975m )
Sanding ( 1e9mph )
NumWheels ( 1 )
BoilerLength ( 2.8m )
BoilerVolume ( 23.69 )
BoilerEffectivity ( 1.1 )
DraftingEffect ( 1.2 )
BoilerResponsiveness ( 1.2 )
CoalBurnage ( 9.5lb/hp/h )
MaxBoilerOutput ( 6786lb/h )
NumCylinders ( 2 )
CylinderStroke ( 2.84*2*12in )
CylinderDiameter ( 8.2in )
CylinderVolume ( 2.84*0.735(ft^3) )
CylinderEffectivity ( 1.4 )
InjectorSizes ( 6mm 5mm )
ExhaustLimit ( 7465lb/h )
PrimingFactor ( 1.2 )
SteamMinPrimingLevel ( 0.9 )
SteamPrimingPowerLossProportion ( 0.3 )
SteamPrimingWaterUsageIncreaseProportion ( 5 )
SteamPrimingReductionWithCylinderCocksOpen ( 0.7 )
BlastExponent ( 0.46 )
MaxBoilerPressure ( 160psi )
MaxFireMass ( 328lb )
IdealFireMass ( 239lb )
MaxWaterMass ( 400lb )
SafetyValvesSteamUsage ( 4500lb/h )
ShovelCoalMass ( 1lb )
SmokeCombustion ( 23 )
MaxTenderCoalMass ( 4032lb )
MaxTenderWaterMass ( 4180lb )
comment(0 for live steam, 1 for exhaust steam)
InjectorTypes( 0 1 )
Injector1FeedRateMultiplierLive( 0.55 )
Injector2FeedRateMultiplierExhaust( 0.55 )
Injector1WaterValveVariance( 0.50 )
Injector2WaterValveVariance( 0.99 )
SuperHeater ( 1.0 )
SteamSmokeUnitsPerPoundOfFuel( 5 )
SteamMaxSmokeUnitsReleaseRate( 25 )
MaxSteamHeatingPressure( 20 )
SafetyValvePressureDifference( 8 )
SteamGaugeGlassHeight( 5.5 )

BasicSteamUsage ( 90lb/h )
BasicCoalUsage ( 14lb/h )
SteamFiremanConditionLossRateConstant ( 1.4 )
SteamFiremanConditionGainRateConstant ( 1.1 )
SteamFiremanEnergyLossRateConstant ( 1.6 )
SteamFiremanEnergyGainRateConstant ( 1.1 )
SteamFiremanMaxConstantFiringRate ( 600 )
SteamFiremanMaxPossibleFiringRate ( 20000 )
SteamFiremanEnergyUsedPerPoundOfCoal ( 120000 )
InjectorLimits1 ( 50psi 0.4 1 )
InjectorLimits2 ( 50psi 0.4 1 )
CylinderCocksPowerEfficiency ( 0.9 )
SteamCylinderCocksOperation( Manual )

VacuumBrakesSmallEjectorPowerRating( 2.0 )
VacuumBrakesMinBoilerPressureMaxVacuum( 70 )
VacuumBrakesSmallEjectorUsageRate( 300 )
VacuumBrakesLargeEjectorUsageRate( 1000 )
VacuumBrakesHasVacuumPump( 0 )

TrainBrakesControllerMaxApplicationRate( 9 )
TrainBrakesControllerMaxReleaseRate( 9 )
TrainBrakesControllerMinSystemPressure( 0 )
TrainBrakesControllerMaxSystemPressure( 21 )

EngineBrakesControllerHasProportionalBrake( 1 )
EngineBrakesProportionalBrakeLag( 0.9 )

BrakesEngineBrakeType( "Vacuum_single_pipe" )
BrakesTrainBrakeType( "Vacuum_single_pipe" )
BrakesEngineControllers( "Hand, Train" )

SteamSmallestCutoff( 0.5 )
NumberOfDamperSteps( 4 )

RegulatorValveType( Twin_port )
RegulatorSecondValveStartPosition( 0.5 )
RegulatorPilotValveExponent( 0.17 )
RegulatorSecondValveExponent( 0.7 )
RegulatorPilotValveFullOpenning( 0.4 )
RegulatorMainValveInitialOpenning( 0.5 )

SteamBlowerEffectExponent( 0.5 )
SteamBlowerEfficiencyExponent( 1.0 )
SteamBlowerMaxSteamUsageRate( 500 ) comment( lbs/h )
SteamBlowerMaxProportionOfBlastEffect( 0.15 )

SteamWaterScoopMinPickupSpeed( 25 ) comment( mph )
SteamWaterScoopMaxPickupSpeed( 60 ) comment( mph )
SteamWaterScoopResistance( 8500N )
comment( pounds per second. 6000gallons per minute max. )
SteamWaterScoopMaxPickupRate( 1000 )

CabView ( palmerston.cvf )
HeadOut ( -1.9 3.51 -3.3 )

EngineControllers (
comment( Engine controls )

Regulator ( 0 1 0.1 0
NumNotches( 0 )
)
Cutoff ( -0.80 0.80 0.10 0
NumNotches( 0 )
)
Brake_Train ( 0 1 0.025 0.53
NumNotches( 3
Notch(0 0 TrainBrakesControllerReleaseStart )
Notch(0.4 1 TrainBrakesControllerRunningStart )
Notch(0.5 1 TrainBrakesControllerApplyStart )
)
)
Brake_Hand ( 0 1 0.1 0
NumNotches( 0 )
)
FireDoor ( 0 4 1 4
NumNotches( 0 )
)
Sanding( 0 1 0 )
Blower ( 0 1 0.1 0
NumNotches( 0 )
)
HeatingTap ( 0 1 0.025 0
NumNotches( 0 )
)
Shovel ( 0 1 1 0
NumNotches( 0 )
)
DampersFront ( 0 1 0.25 1
NumNotches( 0 )
)
DampersBack ( 0 1 0.25 0
NumNotches( 0 )
)
Injector1Steam ( 0 1 0 )
Injector2Steam ( 0 1 0 )
Injector1Water ( 0 1 0.1 0
NumNotches( 0 )
)
Injector2Water ( 0 1 0.1 0
NumNotches( 0 )
)
CylinderCocks ( 0 1 1 )
Whistle ( 0 1 0 )
WaterScoop ( 0 1 0 )
SmallEjectorOrCompressor( 0 1 1 )
Headlights( 0 1 0 )
)

comment(fire temp, fire mass, water mass, boiler pressure,
water level, tender_water_mass, tender_coal_mass,
smoke_quantity, fire_condition, coal quality )

EngineVariables( 945 200 210 148 4180 1 1 0.9 0.82 )
Sound ( "..\\..\\common.sound\\2cyl_generic\\2c-140c-cab01.sms" )

MaxSandingTime ( 300 )


Best regards, Martin G.

[sp762]

That's very interesting.

Are you saying that the rugga problems are bing caused by the lack of a brake pipe?

Mike

[saddletank]

The issue of loose consists not being pullable if they are made up of handbrake-only wagons is well known. All my wagons, NG included have a (0N force) vac pipe now - it makes no difference at all to their behaviour, except they are now usable!

[sp762]

There you go - I must have been asleep and missed that one.