Forge Simulation

[JamesLit]

snip

Thank you for the compliments to our work! We have discussed several further German locomotives for the future, and definitely would like to create more. The P8/BR 38 is one that has been discussed so it is entirely possible that we may see this in the future. At the moment, however, our next few addons are planned to be British locomotives of various ilks, and at least one of those should be revealed over the period of the next month or so. That said, we would rather have less projects revealed and more projects completed! But indeed, we will definitely make a return to Germany. It is a market - steam wise, at least - that I feel has nowhere near enough content, even as a British person I adore German steam and want more!

snip

And thank you, Marucs, for having a mature and very reasonable discussion with us all about it, and for your compliments to the team. There are many options ahead of us for the future, and we hope that the number thereof will only increase - and I genuinely hope that we will produce a pack you will enjoy.

[ashgray]

From the start, let me acknowledge that to some, this can be a sensitive issue. so Moderators - if you consider any of this to be OTT, please feel free to remove.

When I first saw this thread, I hoped that, at last, someone would be making a wartime German route, similar to the one that was (and likely still is) available for MSTS. I used to enjoy that route immensely - battleships on the sea, tanks being transported, fuel and troop depots, bomb explosions, etc. It was really immersive. That route was a simulation, as are the items subject of this thread.

In real life, I of course abhor the attrocities perpetrated by Nazi Germany, as I believe should all right-thinking people who beileve in the fundamental principles of human rights, freedom from oppression, torture, etc. However, as I've said, this is a simulation. Despite my humanitarian approach to life, I believe that drawing too close a parallel between modern-day past-times and real life would inevitably mean that people should not watch war films such as Schindler's List, Das Boot, The Great escape (just to mention a few classics) or enjoy harmless WW2 naval, air and battlefield simulations.

After all, where would one draw the line? Napoleonic sims? Old-fashioned strategy war-gaming? What about comics such as The Hotspur, Valiant, etc, that people of my generation read as kids? To extend the analogy, what if such atrocities were fictional and are said to happen "long ago, and in a galaxy far, far away", but are clearly based upon historical examples of good vs evil? The most recent SW film contains clear analogies to the behaviours and iconic symbols of Nazi Germany. Such themes are part of our history, whether we like it or not, and likely always will be.

We should not forget what happened 70 years ago, but we perhaps should keep it in context....

Ash

[chrisonline]

Very well put, Ash, I agree wholeheartedly but couldn't have said it better

[marcusboon]

And thank you, Marucs, for having a mature and very reasonable discussion with us all about it, and for your compliments to the team. There are many options ahead of us for the future, and we hope that the number thereof will only increase - and I genuinely hope that we will produce a pack you will enjoy.

Thank you too James, for your willingness to take my comments seriously, you're a gentleman. I will follow developments with interest!

Marcus

[JamesLit]

And thank you, Marucs, for having a mature and very reasonable discussion with us all about it, and for your compliments to the team. There are many options ahead of us for the future, and we hope that the number thereof will only increase - and I genuinely hope that we will produce a pack you will enjoy.

Thank you too James, for your willingness to take my comments seriously, you're a gentleman. I will follow developments with interest!

Marcus

Apologies for misspelling your name, there. Slip of the fingers. Thank you, though, again. The world would be boring if everyone always agreed - but even in disagreement it's far from unreasonable to be civil and have a proper discussion. That I quite like.

Now we seem to have dealt with those comments - not by any means intending to now dismiss them, though - I would prefer for us to stick to the topic of Forge and our work, as I would prefer not to allow for the risk of any potential for less mature discussion should the current topic continue - as much as I still feel that the discussion was entirely valid, just as much now as before, there's nothing more to be said, I don't think.


Another render, this time of the wartime livery. Tenders to match have also been done.

The SSyms is in game with sounds etc all working correctly, and the Omms will follow shortly, but first, I need to get a basic version of the loco and tender in game in order to send it off to be scripted. This is where it gets really exciting.

[JamesLit]

Hi all, we finally have a website!

Progress report soon.

[shawster]

Hello James, and members of Forge Simulation,

Firstly I must say how impressed I am with, a) your company motto of quality over quantity and b) the looks of your WIP locomotives so far. Although the BR52 might not be my personal taste, it looks tremendous. The appearance of both the 2MT and the Darjeeling locomotives, are right up my street. As someone who has been with TS since the Railsimulator days, I can safely say you're products are looking to be some of the best on the market.

Best wishes, S.

[michaelhendle]

Hi

I'm in my late 60's so can add a few things about wartime routes be it British or German,at present I'm in two minds about,the class 52.
Personally with the 100th Anniversary of the Battle of Jutland where Britain lost so many Battleships,is it right to have a scene involving Battleships shooting at each other,then in July it's the 100th Anniversary of the Battle of the Somme where thousands on both side got killed,I had relatives killed at both Jutland and my Grandfather killed at the Battle of the Somme.

Now coming to WW2 I wonder what my Uncle would think about anything German,he was in the tank regiment that was one of the first British units that relieved Belsen,I know what he would have said.

When considering any wartime modeling you have to remember how it would affect living relatives of those who died in both wars with Germany

It's not so much WW1 that bothers me, but WW2 is a different matter,It wasn't only Hitlers final solution,look at what the SS did,France,wiped out a whole village,the same in Checkozvaklia,Poland, Russia,even as early in 1940 the SS shot British Prisoners of war,

I hope you don't mind me mentioning these things,they easily forgotten now a days, I would by the locomotive but I don't want any thing to do with the one with the Nazi symbol,even if it's slightly doctored.

On the other hand I would love to see a Henschell Class 66 2-6-4T

Mike

[deltic009]

I hope you don't think me odd Michael, but I really don't understand what the purpose of your post really is.

Should German people be offended that you can get replica bombers or Spitfires of the RAF in model or simulation form? It is said that the V2 was a loco that put in such sterling work to help our own war efforts - perhaps Dovetail should remove it from the german Steam Store to avoid causing any offence to relatives of civilians who died in WW2 too.

Sorry, your point seems very frivolous to me if I am honest, and both my late Uncle and Grandfather fought in WW2, not that it should make much odds to my opninions on this DLC.

[JamesLit]

snip

Thank you very much for your kind messages. We all have other jobs or are in education (I work on the railway for my day job, we have guys in university, full time 3D artists, etc) so this is an extra thing for us, we all agreed that if we're going to do this it can't be a full time job so we may as well do it properly rather than trying to churn stuff out. We want to make things that, as people who love realism, meet the standards we have grown to expect from a number of developers over recent years. Value for money, as high quality as possible, so that years down the line people will still see our work from today as being respectable. We take pride in what we do. Thank you again for your comments.

[quote="michaelhendle"snip[/quote]

Hi Michael,

For comments regarding this debate, please read the relatively brief thread from the beginning; you will note that a number of people including some German members have provided their opinions on this matter and it has already been discussed at length, including having been addressed officially by myself.

As has already been said, no one is forced to buy anything, the choice is up to you, however I do feel it important to mention that as sold, the product will feature absolutely no Nazi symbolism in the slightest. The only relevant symbol present is the iron cross on the Tiger tanks which is not prohibited by law in any country and is widely used across war games and so forth across the internet and the world. All of your other points have already been discussed earlier on in the thread, and you may note I politely requested, as the subject had already been discussed as much as was possible without going round in circles, that that particular discussion was put to bed and the focus returned once again to the point of the thread: Forge Simulation and our products. Please understand that I have absolutely no intention whatsoever to be rude in any way by what I say, but bear in mind I have already made it clear that this discussion has been had to its fullest and it would not be for the best if it were to continue.

snip

Yes.

[marcusboon]

Sorry, your point seems very frivolous to me if I am honest, and both my late Uncle and Grandfather fought in WW2, not that it should make much odds to my opninions on this DLC.

In my opinion not frivolous at all. If you take a look at what's been said earlier in this thread you might understand the point that Michael is making....

Marcus

[MarcusGustafsson]

Sorry, your point seems very frivolous to me if I am honest, and both my late Uncle and Grandfather fought in WW2, not that it should make much odds to my opninions on this DLC.

In my opinion not frivolous at all. If you take a look at what's been said earlier in this thread you might understand the point that Michael is making....

Marcus

Well, I for one have to side with Deltic on this one.
Becaus not every german was a Nazi, not every German soldier was actually german.
Alot of people who did not deserv to die, died in the war. Even on the German side.

So why is it that only things that refer to the German side of WW2 has to be toned down? Is it not true that Germans lost their brothers, husbands, sons and fathers too? Is it not true that both sides did things in war that was questionable?
The Germans did horrendous things, there is no denying it. But censoring the truth becaus people died, is not the way to go.
Becaus when it comes down to it, the people who died, died for freedome and truth.

So let it be spoken, let it be known.
Dont censor it.
Otherwise the sacrifice of all those soldiers were in vain.

That's my way of viewing it.

[holzroller]

It's not frivolous, but we all have different views. The allies deliberatly killed tens of thousands of German civilians in bombing raids in WW2 in order to make the Germans attack our cities instead of the airfields, yet nobody had a problem with the Q1 addd-on or considered whether some would find it offensive that WW2 scenarios were supplied. Likewise nobody seems to have a problem with the S160. There were things done on both sides that would be considered very differently now. Does the end justify the means, certainly the final solution was horrendous to put it mildly, did it justify what was done to Chemnitz and many other cities? It certainly didn't do anything to slow down the horrors being carried out. Historically it was the reparations imposed on Germany by the allies after one idiot took them into WW1 that opened the way for Hitler. If they hadn't been so extreme, he probably would have just been a small footnote in history rather than what he became. It doesn't excuse what happened, but as with the middle east in modern times we all tend to forget how political meddling in other areas of the world are often the root cause of the problems. That doesn't just apply to the west. Politics and religion are the biggest causes of trouble throughout histroy, we never learn. Personally I am not that interested in the WW2 lok, even though I was a wargamer in my youth, my era is III onwards. If you have that strong an association between the loco's and the death trains I personally don't see what a difference a coat of paint makes, it's the same engine. The swastika I can understand as it has a strong associations with these horrors, but you would have to take a conscious action for that to be present on the loks.

[chrisonline]

Hi

I'm in my late 60's so can add a few things about wartime routes be it British or German,at present I'm in two minds about,the class 52.
Personally with the 100th Anniversary of the Battle of Jutland where Britain lost so many Battleships,is it right to have a scene involving Battleships shooting at each other,then in July it's the 100th Anniversary of the Battle of the Somme where thousands on both side got killed,I had relatives killed at both Jutland and my Grandfather killed at the Battle of the Somme.

Now coming to WW2 I wonder what my Uncle would think about anything German,he was in the tank regiment that was one of the first British units that relieved Belsen,I know what he would have said.

When considering any wartime modeling you have to remember how it would affect living relatives of those who died in both wars with Germany

It's not so much WW1 that bothers me, but WW2 is a different matter,It wasn't only Hitlers final solution,look at what the SS did,France,wiped out a whole village,the same in Checkozvaklia,Poland, Russia,even as early in 1940 the SS shot British Prisoners of war,

I hope you don't mind me mentioning these things,they easily forgotten now a days, I would by the locomotive but I don't want any thing to do with the one with the Nazi symbol,even if it's slightly doctored.

On the other hand I would love to see a Henschell Class 66 2-6-4T

Mike

This general topic has already been discussed earlier in the thread, chewed over, debated, bashed around, and wrapped up. I am not making light of it, but it has been covered and now should, IMHO, be dropped.

Let's talk about the products, the workmanship, the plans. The rest has already been covered.

Chris

[michaelhendle]

Hi
One locomotive I would like to see is a Henschell class 66 2-6-4T,or even a Henschell South African Railways Class 15F or 25C condensing locomotive
Mike