General Comment To Dovetail Games

[smarty2]

I don't care what they call it or if DTG use bonkers advertising, as long as the product works and is reliable and fun to use then so what?

[gptech]

but some of the recent releases seem to have more functions on than they used to.

Yes; and that could be taken as an indication that 'catering to the masses' and generating healthy sales/turnover then has the knock on effect of allowing the production of more 'in depth' models, and if those models incorporate a method of switching between 'geek controls' and 'get in and go controls' then everybody wins.

[AndiS]

The only thing to add is: Once you called your product extreme in version 2015, what would you call it in version 2016. "not so extreme", "average", "just the usual minor improvements" ?

I guess the plan is to stick with "extreme" until it is topped with "unreal". How to top "unreal" will be decided later. I propose "real".

Like many others I remember the unreal thing announced for "not now" whatever the wording was. If a software vendor does not announce anything for "now", you can relax for a few years. Autumn 2017 is my personal guess. But maybe they haste it to make it for the Christmas sales 2016. Then I will skip version 1 most likely.

For me, there has always been some self-irony in their use of "extreme". Because what exactly would you ever associate with extreme when you talk about railways, unless you use extreme as a synonym for cool, fancy, great, exciting.

I love their current video (on railsimulator.com front page) for its honesty. This is a game for adult boys who always wanted to drive an engine. As a bonus, you can build your own world if you like. And the game will help you through the complexity of all the world's engines.

Over the years we saw this shift towards modelling the cab in great detail, faking all the stuff that does not happen outside in the simulation of the rest of the world. I am sure they made their market studies and learnt that no one wants to simulate railway operation as a whole but many want to drive a train. But they are afraid that it might be complex, so they need help built in, aka Driver Assist.

The only thing that worries me a bit regarding the unreal sequel to the extreme is that if everyone needs help with the buttons and levers in the cab, then little development effort will go into the simulation of the hidden and distant other parts of the railway system that are even harder to grasp.

[gptech]

Once you called your product extreme in version 2015, what would you call it in version 2016

"Extreme--to the MAX"? ...."Extreme--FTW"? .......... it all depends what 'buzzwords' popular culture embraces at the time.

I want a retro Version--- "TS20xx--it's like way cool dude", "TS20xx--totally bogus"

[tnleeuw01]

Just chiming in with my two cents, I think that the features they've shown us actually introduce a fair bit of extra realism, even if not yet to the extent as we can get from other parties.

So I'm not too fussed about that.

Looking also at Matt's engine driver post about his control desk, and how Ben was talking about the Castles, you know that there are people working there who actually care about the simulation side of it.


And regards to how they communicate about their new release, well I personally find it a huge improvement, despite not being fond of the "Extreme" hyperbole.

The release will hold relatively little surprises. Compare that to the release of TS2015, which was much hyped but shocked everyone with unexpected UI changes that didn't pan out as DTG had hoped, and a new system of clouds that failed to impress, but introduced the white hills bug.

This year's improvements sound safer, and it feels we already know just about all about it.

So, I think that they're doing alright despite some missteps and I'm looking forward to the release next week.

That's my take on it.

Cheers,

--Tim

[pjt1974]

Some interesting takes on things and I cannot say I disagree with any of them apart from Warnie and remember the day he dropped the Ashes

I'm not too bothered about the advertising. No matter what they say, I'm hooked anyway. I just feel they could added a bit more clarity between Unreal Engine and this year's upgrade to save a lot of questions.

Anyway, only a week to go

[david1]

I did find the wording extreme for TS2016 rather misleading myself, because it is just the normal yearly update, but maybe I will be surprised next week, but I doubt it, extreme would be a name givern to something that does more or goes beyond what has gone before, and DTG has not done that, extreme is something I would describe as the AP sound packs, Waggonz, Railright in partnership with AP.

I am hardly likely to even use the word for the next sim using the unreal engine and unlikely to bother with unless it completely blows me away. I can not justify losing all my current content and starting again at great expense and have to endure the same tat brought to us by DTG, because they don't use the potential of the current sim. sounds and physics are total dreadful by DTG. If I do go into unreal it would only be a couple of high quality routes, provided I can get prototypical traction for the route and all from third parties not the normal DTG poor standards that they churn out.

[gptech]

I can not justify losing all my current content and starting again at great expense...

and that, boys and girls, is how misleading *facts* propagate. Whilst it's extremely (does this explain the 'extreme' naming? ) likely that existing content (as it stands) won't work with the new game engine we have had no official word as to by what degree, nor whether existing products can be converted at little expense.

....and have to endure the same tat brought to us by DTG, because they don't use the potential of the current sim. sounds and physics are total dreadful by DTG.

Purely your personal opinion; OK, the DTG produced stuff doesn't have the 'bells and whistles' that 3rd party offerings bring but there must be plenty of satisfied customers--how else would they still be in business? As has been oft stated, if you can't bear how the game is, uninstall it.

....If I do go into unreal it would only be a couple of high quality routes, provided I can get prototypical traction for the route and all from third parties not the normal DTG poor standards that they churn out.

What if there is amore than a couple of 'red hot' routes produced?...what if the most 'red hot' is one produced by DTG? If you can tell the future so well, why haven't you won the lottery?

[theorganist]

Unless I am missing something I cannot imagine anything stopping someone having TS2016 and the next generation on the same installation.

There are people who still use TS2015 and MSTS, I cannot see the situation with the new sim/game engine being any different, so why the emotive comments like "I can not justify losing all my current content and starting again at great expense..."

If by purchasing TS2017 (with the unreal engine if that is the case) it meant losing my existing content believe me I would be the first to complain.

And looking at some of the recent releases and the up and coming Riviera Line I would hardly say they turn out tat. Infact going back as far as the Woodhead line, I would hardly describe that as tat.

Some people seem to enjoy finding something to be miserable about.

Peter

[atlasduff47]

Unless I am missing something I cannot imagine anything stopping someone having TS2016 and the next generation on the same installation.

As far as I am aware, you will indeed be able to *try* the unreal version (by try, I mean most probably buy), whilst keeping all your goodies safe in your current TS2016 installation.

[AndiS]

Just two, no four, cents to expand on Gary's points:

1) You loose as much as you give up. People played MSTS for ages after the release of RailSimulater, later RailWorks. DTG took the graphics of RW=TS201x farther over the years. No idea how near to UE4 in practice, but most likely nearer that MSTS was to KRS in 2007, simply because MSTS did nothing for the product since 2001.

Therefore, if you have the UE4 thing, you may well still enjoy TS2017 for a long while.


2) Since DTG don't abandon their product the way MSTS did, it could have quite a gradual decline in the shadow of the new thing. If their sales figures for TS2017 add-ons look good, there will be TS2018 bringing along some more extremely minor improvements.

If they see their TS2017 add-ons sell well, why would they release a new engine model for the UE4 thing only. It will not take any skilled modeller too long to re-export his shape for the deployment in TS2017 using the Uber shader. It may not look as good as in UE4, but what do we know how big the difference will be on the average user's machine. And if you got a large collection for TS2017, it will make sense to buy a new model for the "dated" platform if the graphical difference is not too bad for you.


3) Every seller is free to introduce any scheme of goodies he considers advantageous. Why would DTG not have some "get the engine for both sims" offer? Note that this is my personal speculation. The point is that if you are a valuable customer to anyone, that company will work on ideas how to maintain your attention.

I hope that the new thing will not run TS201x assets as they are but start from a clean slate. I am sure that someone at DTG said "wait, they will hate us" in one of the first meetings on the subject. So I am extremely confident that they are working out a plan to reduce hate from their customers. Most companies do that and going by the reports of others, DTG seem to listen to their customers.


4) DTG modellers are in the best position to create models now that work well for UE4. Their partners are in the second best position. So I guess that work on "UE4 models" has already begun.

Everyone reading a few web pages could do that, too. There seems to be some UE4 demo somewhere. So just create the textures the way they suggest and maybe even preview them in the demo, now or whenever one is released. Then on release of the UE4 train simulator, you enter the physics data in the unreal Blueprint Editor and export.

That way, there could be quite some offering within a year from release which will be some difference to Rail Simulator.

Talking of the latter closes the argument: The key point is whether the new thing will excel the old thing. If there is intelligent AI and a scenario editor where you just enter the time table, or the destination and train type and the rest is done by the system; or if the new system loads much more detail on the same hardware than the old one; or if the sound and/or lighting system is far better; then people will rush. If not, they won't.

[gptech]

Unless I am missing something I cannot imagine anything stopping someone having TS2016 and the next generation on the same installation.

There was an intimation from DTG that the Unreal powered version would be a completely separate product, not an upgrade to the current platform so if that bears out then the 2 versions will happily sit side by side. If that's not the case all is not lost; same principle of holding on to a known, working copy of TS2015 when TS2016 is released--keep that instance of Steam/TS permanently off line, quarantined by firewall rules if necessary.

[theorganist]

Unless I am missing something I cannot imagine anything stopping someone having TS2016 and the next generation on the same installation.

There was an intimation from DTG that the Unreal powered version would be a completely separate product, not an upgrade to the current platform so if that bears out then the 2 versions will happily sit side by side. If that's not the case all is not lost; same principle of holding on to a known, working copy of TS2015 when TS2016 is released--keep that instance of Steam/TS permanently off line, quarantined by firewall rules if necessary.

Thanks Gary, I must admit I read into it that it would be a separate product. I hope that is the case.

I can't imagine for the life of me that it would be an upgrade similar to a TS2015-16 upgrade but one that renders your content useless as it can't run with the new engine. That would leave many disgruntled customers.

Peter

[gptech]

Found this at http://www.engine-driver.com/article/sh ... -simulator

When the UE4-based Train Simulator becomes a reality, what will happen to existing users’ older versions of Train Simulator? And what about the DLC they have purchased?

We are mindful that a lot of people in the community have built up some fantastic collections of locomotives and routes over the last few years and we're absolutely going to continue to support those products, and indeed create new content, for the current generation Train Simulator. I can say that we are looking at making the next generation Train Simulator an optional upgrade so you can continue to use the current generation product with all of your current add-ons, whether or not you choose to upgrade to the next generation. So, if you are concerned that your machine might not be up to handling Unreal Engine 4, don't worry.

so, whilst it doesn't confirm that 'Unreal' will be separate or not it does demonstrate that they are aware that not everybody can/would want to run the next generation game.

[peterfhayes]

Gary

When the UE4-based Train Simulator becomes a reality, what will happen to existing users’ older versions of Train Simulator? And what about the DLC they have purchased?

We are mindful that a lot of people in the community have built up some fantastic collections of locomotives and routes over the last few years and we're absolutely going to continue to support those products, and indeed create new content, for the current generation Train Simulator. I can say that we are looking at making the next generation Train Simulator an optional upgrade so you can continue to use the current generation product with all of your current add-ons, whether or not you choose to upgrade to the next generation. So, if you are concerned that your machine might not be up to handling Unreal Engine 4, don't worry.

I must be reading that from the left side of my brain, because to me that infers that you won't be able to use any current DLC in the next generation TS (UE4). So if that's not "separate" I don't know what is.
pH