AP/Waggonz GA Class 90 coming from RSC?

[jarmstro]

I cannot see what the fuss is about? The master route builder Keith Ross sells his routes via RSC/Steam and so do plenty of other independent developers so why not AP?

In fact I prefer to buy via Steam because it installs seamlessly and is always reloadable in the event of a dead PC. I wish their sound packs were on Steam so I didn't have to reinstall them every time I verify. I will certainly be buying this.

You just need to be a bit careful what you buy. Unfortunately I have to say that most of the recent in-house developed RSC stuff is very inferior. I bought the Class466 yesterday and, well, it's so bad that words fail me!!!

Regards
John A

[dave13]

Well I am for one looking forward to the GA liveries form Steam as I already have the class 90/DVT pack and I think its great
And I am also looking forward to the Class 321 pack any chance they will be on Steam?
As to me It represents good value for money as you get 4 liveries and 4 scenario for £11.99.

**Waning Rant**
The trouble is that today people seem to want something for nothing. At the end of day all company's have to make money other wise they close simple!
I think that was very nice of Richard to upgrade the class 37 sound pack for free for example But I wouldn't expect to get the GA class 90/DVT pack for free
just because I have bought the other one! So good luck to AP on Steam
**Rant Over**

Dave:)

[Dave4468]

It is a sad state of affairs to see Richard on here feeling he has to explain and defend himself against this ridiculous backlash, some people have been flat out rude or delusional - Dave4468, how is it APs fault that you made a preconception of how their business would proceed in your own mind and you were wrong?

I commend your outright commitment to being bitter about pretty much everything anyone ever does connected to DLC made for this sim:

Well then. I've finally gone and purchased it and its a very good route. However so many small errors that jump out to me, much as I predicted!

I know people are saying how wonderful it looks but something is annoying me about the quality.

And of course, how could RSC take peoples money in good faith without having bricked up windows at Derby Road - I'll call trading standards ASAP.

*edited* No doubt soon we will read with sadness how another fine developer is hounded of this board.

First I must tackle those two quotes taken somewhat out of context. The first one may appear to be somewhat of an oxymoron. I do think GEML is a nice route but, as I've said I work for GA on train so know the route well, so there are little errors which jump out at me. These are things like a missing banner repeater at Manningtree, missing OFF indicators at Ipswich, lack of SPAD signals in several places. They don't detract from the route but to me they are obvious and I'm going through fixing them! As to the second one, that was a comment related to the fact that the pre-release screen shots of the GEML released by RSC looked like the route was of a lower quality to Hamburg-Hannover. And the comment about Derby Road. Again for HH it appeared RSC were making custom buildings for all HH stations but simply copy-pasting buildings for GEML. Derby Road, if you know it, has quite a distinctive mural covering the station building, thats why I used it as an example. And I'm not the only person to mention this, Colchester PSB is another victim.

Once again, I am not hounding Richard off the board. The 90 is excellent, the 142 is excellent, all the other AP packs I own are excellent. To me (and I've kept making it obvious this is my opinion) it is a very uncharacteristic and (in my opinion) disappointing curve ball thrown here. This just changes how I will approach AP stuff in the future. Until yesterday I planned to send my wallet by mail to Richard in preparation for the 321, now I shall be waiting until this does or doesn't happen again.

[Merlin75]

What's happened here and on FB is partly down to the fact people were shown these and the green FL ones and were told they were going to get them in the 90 pack when it was released. However at the last minute they were removed and now they are being sold as another pack. If they were not shown during development and people were not told they were going to get them then I don't think AP would be getting the backlash he is getting at the moment. The guys of waggonz and AP do deserve to get a fair return if this is the only source of income but they will need to be more careful in the future and not say one thing and then go and do another if they want to avoid this kind of backlash again.

[phat2003uk]

Just to say, we (AP) never showed screenshots of any of the Freightliner and Greater Anglia liveries. It was perfectly reasonable for Waggonz to do so too as they were in development and they may have at one time said they'd be included in the main pack but plans change. The main point is that we never pretended the original Class 90/Mk3 DVT Pack contained these liveries at the point of sale or in the AP promotion preceding the release so no-one has been diddled out of anything, everyone knew full well what they were buying with the original pack so to pretend we have somehow been underhand is pretty unfair in my opinion. The main pack contains a stonking 18 liveries for crying out loud .

[deltic009]

What's happened here and on FB is partly down to the fact people were shown these and the green FL ones and were told they were going to get them in the 90 pack when it was released. However at the last minute they were removed and now they are being sold as another pack. If they were not shown during development and people were not told they were going to get them then I don't think AP would be getting the backlash he is getting at the moment. The guys of waggonz and AP do deserve to get a fair return if this is the only source of income but they will need to be more careful in the future and not say one thing and then go and do another if they want to avoid this kind of backlash again.

So we are criticising AP/Waggonz for pre-release pictures that don't confirm what a pack contains? When everyone pulled the trigger on the purchase they knew EXACTLY what liveries were and more importantly were not included.

When Ford first showcased the StreetKA it had a central exhaust pipe, which by production had become a reversing light. They didn't receive abuse and have deposits cancelled because people don't take pre realesa stuff as gospel, at least not people in the real world outside if here.

[Merlin75]

I don't mind what AP or waggonz do. They could sell them in packs of one or two liveries for all I care they need to make money in order to carry on. But they have faced a backlash and the above post was just stating a possible reason why. I will make it clear it was waggonz that said these and the FL repaints are going to be in the pack and not AP.

[bri2808]

I rarely post on here, and am more of an observer, but felt the need to post on this subject.

I have often thought that Richard has worked closely in the past with RSC anyway, so this is no huge surprise. As some have already mentioned it may mean the personal touch will go that you get from Richard when you contact him for support, something that is second to none when it comes to customer service, but only time will tell on this. Having spent a lot of money on the products at AP I wont be stopping anytime soon.

However, what is shocking is how some on here seem to be sat in their ivory towers suggesting as one put it that Richard has 'crossed over to the dark side' when what he is doing surely is recouping something for all the time and effort he has put in to the project and lets be honest a) after a years work and during these times of austerity he is fully entitled to do, and b) many of the people that are standing back and pretending to be so shocked would do themselves given the opportunity.

Surely we should welcome this as one of the community linking up with RSC and hopefully benefiting us further down the line (no pun intended).

I say good luck Richard and hopefully anything you recoup can be ploughed back in to producing further high quality products such that are already on the AP market.

[jimmyshand]

The issue (if indeed there is one) for me is one of reputation. AP have built up a reputation as being a standalone company with extremely high standards of quality, they offer unparalleled attention to detail, they go the extra mile, they are in tune with their customers, they fix bugs swiftly, they upgrade their products when they start to age, they offer dozens of liveries and features in their rolling stock packs and they provide complete all round value for money. RSC on the other hand have built up a reputation as being a company that wants to bleed us for every penny whilst putting the minimum of effort into their rolling stock DLC, no advanced features, one livery per pack, poor sounds, little or no bug fixing etc and they are seen to be out of touch with their core customers.

The prospect of AP joining forces with RSC could indeed serve to make RSC up their game and match AP's standards or it could equally serve to drag AP down to their level? If AP start working on joint projects with RSC then AP will no longer be working to their own standards or their own schedule and they may be forced to cut corners to meet RSC deadlines and agendas. It's not too hard to imagine something like this conversation in the cut and thrust world of RSC Towers "Rich, we need to get the class 92 to market next week, don't worry about the sounds not being perfect, as long as it sounds similar that will do".

Only time will tell how this union pans out and if it leads to other joint ventures, but it is as wrong to think it will be all beneficial as it is to think it will be the end of the world. None of us know so it's good to hear views from both sides of the optimist / pessimist divide.

[Natvander]

Obviously the "A" in Richard A. Armstrong is Anakin.

(Tongue in cheek - better make that clear...)

Personally I hope we get more AP stock on Steam. We can only hope that will raise the standard of other content, it will benefit workshop scenarios and I can only assume that releasing content on Steam will give his content much more exposure.

If you don't like it, don't buy it. Simple as that. What right do any of us have to say this is right or wrong?

[thebumb]

Good luck to AP and Waggonz for offering this through steam; the larger audience can only be good news (and just reward) for all their hard work.

If folk want to buy it, they can, if they don't then they don't have to. It's a choice we can make. If the product is still being sold through the AP website, then what is the problem?...so long as the quality doesn't get dumbed down.

On another note.....Does this partnership mean that we will get quality sounds by default for RSC stock in future? Hopefully it does!

[749006]

Good luck to Richard (AP)/Waggonz selling the Class 90 & DVT thru RSC.
Hope it sells well and brings in some cash for other projects.

I have no problems with the Class 90 pack I bought and 18 liveries plus all the features the loco & DVT have for £14.99 was fantastic .
But I won't be buying the new pack from RSC even in a sale as - I don't really need it - I have 18 versions of the loco already.

Peter

[spellow3010]

I saw the statement about the release of this second Class 90 pack via RSC and Steam and wondered what was going on. To be fair to Richard and the Waggonz guys, it is up to them how they get the best exposure for their work. I focus on 'exposure' as DLC is actually art. And all good artists crave exposure, especially while they are still alive.

I don't fully subscribe to this all being solely about money. True, devs have bills to pay, but so do customers. More bills than just buying DLC for a game. So if they feel that they are being ripped off or if they felt misled, you can understand a gripe here and there. For the record, I didn't feel ripped off at all, and I don't feel misled.

I see a lot of people's issues being more related to this 'partnering' with RSC. And within that, I sense some (perceived knowledge from experience) cynicism about prospective pricing policy and tinkering. Here I reference back to comments made about a product (could be a route... could be a loco) produced by a third party developer and sold through Steam - once it left the original developer it was understood to be 'perfect and good to go.' When it got to Steam, it was alleged to have been tinkered with by RSC. And we have all seen with our very eyes the '£11.99 for one skin' for updated DLC over the last 12 months. I haven't seen a price mentioned for this GA 90 pack anywhere so it is too soon to comment on whether the price is too high, too low or on par with expectations. I can understand people's paranoia though, and the finger-waggers shouldn't get in the way of good debate on that score IMO.

Quick question, isn't this GA 90 actually a different model to what we have already bought anyway? I saw mention of 'new' light clusters on the front... I assume therefore that this Class 90 would go in a different folder somewhere on my computer and prevent the original pack from being used through the Workshop. I don't know... but experience tells me that.

What I would say, as a very keen supporter/customer of AP and as a consumer through default of RSC, I just hope you (Richard A. Armstrong) don't end up with the rough end of the stick in all this. Your collaborations with other devs and with your scenario/sound packs are a credit to the community and at more than reasonable prices. I pray therefore, that RSC do not sully your product. I hope it goes well for you. I''ll no doubt buy it as I won't be driving Class 360s on GEML that's for sure. Roll on the dusty bin after that...

[rikrobson]

As I understand the situation, There will be an new GE variation of the model with different light clusters and two liveries GA an nxea blue. This will probably be in line with the current pricing model of £11.99 and is labeled GA class 90. These liveries were "missed off" the original pack direct for AP. Also missing is the Green FL liveries. Will we therefore be seeing a FL CLass 90 pack inline with the current models and pricing policy?

I know this makes it easier for customers to plug in the new stock without having to worry about copying files etc, but at £11.99 a shot it does become quite expensive, especially when these are for single livery versions and repaints into these liveries of the different versions are available for free, with a little bit of config work and file copying.

At least they have sales every few months so we can pick up a "bargin"

[TheJRB]

Good on AP and Waggonz for getting a great opportunity to introduce their fantastic product to a greater audience and well done RSC for getting such a product on their books! I don't know whether I will be able to get this pack immediately (other priorities like the upcoming 321 and there's only so much you can ask your parents for! ), but I wish Mr Armstrong and co all the best. For those who don't already have the pack but do have the GEML, this will certainly be the pack to get.
My only hope is that this sort of partnership will not rule out packs like the original 90 with 15 variations from being released what with RSCs desire to sell everything individually. But it's just a hope and it is of course down to RSC and AP how they run their businesses.