AP/Waggonz GA Class 90 coming from RSC?

[phat2003uk]

It's quite obvious the Class 90/Mk3 DVT Pack doesn't contain any Greater Anglia liveries so why would you purchase it if you wanted those? We haven't banned reskins either...

[gptech]

Talk about fickle...in August the class 90 was the best thing since bread was invented, never mind sliced; the AP/Waggonz coalition were the next obvious choice to govern the country....
and now?...
lambasted for deciding how they should run their business.

[nukem]

As Richard has said it is your choice if you buy it or not, no one is forcing you to buy either personally I have already brought the 90/DVT mk3 pack direct from AP and I will buy the steam pack also, mainly because this product was (in my personal opinion) very cheap for what you get and even if I do have to spend a further £14.99 I think it is still worth it for the quality of the product. At the end of the day both Waggonz and AP are a business and there are people out there that may not buy for 3rd party websites, so what they have done by going through to RCS and steam is a very justifiable way to get more business, and more business for them is only a good thing for the community as it gives them more of an incentive to produce more top quality products for the rest of use to enjoy

[ChrisBarnes]

Talk about fickle...in August the class 90 was the best thing since bread was invented, never mind sliced; the AP/Waggonz coalition were the next obvious choice to govern the country....
and now?...
lambasted for deciding how they should run their business.

Ah, but GP my friend, they have got in to bed with RSC, [hyperbole] so now all of a sudden people are running round in the fury of a confused internal struggle like a Daily Mail reader who just saw an immigrant apprehend a paedophile and they're not sure what to think anymore [/hyperbole]

Chris

[thecheesemeister]

This is an interesting one. When I first saw this thread I was a little disappointed to hear that everyone's favourite independent developer had 'sold out' to RSC.

But on reflection, this is a massive boost for all simulation fans out there (and let's face it, most of us on here fit that category). Think about it, there are many posts lambasting RSC for 'dumbing down' TS, references to 'Train Game' etc. BUT this partnership shows that RSC see the value of supporting more realistic simulations (even if they aren't willing to produce that kind of stock themselves yet).

If this sells well, then it could clear the way for more realistic stock to be produced across the board. This could be a turning point, raising the bar for new RSC products. As simulation fans, we should all be right behind this partnership, showing RSC how it should be done. It's not like it isn't value for money, even if you have previously bought the original pack.

If you refuse to buy this, then there is no way that you can complain about the quality of RSCs in house products. I for one will be throwing money at this and hoping that everyone else does too.

I hope this, widely agreed to be one of the best models out there, sells fantastically well, paving the way for more of the same in the future, possibly even from RSC themselves. Surely that can only be a good thing?

[starmedia]

As some might of noted certain AP scenario packs have been withdrawn recently due to issues with the new 'AP' files & new file delivery techniques (I believe) so ... you could consider it to be a hopefully fruitful relationship between AP & RSC for this partner programme release so that perhaps some of those new technologies might be shared with the likes of AP so they can continue to turn out top notch scenario packs for us ... I was quite worried to see packs for London To Faversham withdrawn, so hope any partnership programme work on the c90 bears fruit in other ways

On a related note this alas is getting to be a desperately expensive hobby to maintain it hurts almost to see for instance £11.99 flying off out of Paypal if I choose to purchase the Sheerness Branch & c466 for example, it might smart slightly paying for the RSC / AP c90 pack if I choose to do so but what it comes down to is the individuals choice to purchase ... If you look at the facts, RSC released the GEML in the Greater Anglia era, the c360 appeared in unbranded GA colours, then a dev released the same day I believe the GA branding for the c360, job done ! And if as Richard says the RSC / AP c90 pack focuses also on the Greater Anglia era that's a great thing for those interested in that era surely ? I don't much like running c360's in GA colours alongside the c90 in ONE Anglia colours, my hope is that if the new c90 pack fills some livery gaps & perhaps the c321 is released in the same manner (GA livery via RSC & others via AP) then it will cater for most when it comes to what the GEML can give, correct stock for correct eras ... It must be a good thing ? The Steam pricing can hurt but I've seen countless offers & discounts via Greenman Gaming & Get Games for DLC which I'm sure will continue & also those blow out Steam sales at key points in the year where we might decide whether it's best to hold off until for adding to our c90 collection

We have options ! Think positive ... The other probable positive point for AP is the capabilities of Steam (when it works well) on content & update delivery, powerful servers without all the headaches AP faced when the big c90 launch came & promptly flopped for a day or so ...

I'm a moaner & I know it lols But sometimes there's gotta be the positives considered in these things ... I hope very much 3rd party content also continues unhindered, we just don't know the business terms for 3rd parties & whether RSC frown on the cream of 3rd parties enjoying booming sales of excellent products of which they do not enjoy a slice ... for all we know this might be a terms of agreement that sees the survival of the 3rd party players ... just an assumption of course !

[AndyM77]

This could be a turning point, raising the bar for new RSC products

The bar was originally raised when the Class 156 / Class 57 were released by Oovee, RSC took a backward step at that point in regards to their own Rolling Stock release from that point onwards (Class 86 was the first backwards step, although scripted by David Brindley which were borrowed from the 'Freeware' Version with permission as that came first, had a limited 45° cab view, non-opening windows (a standard feature with other 3rd parties stock). ) I can't think of a Single "In House" RSC rolling stock product that jumps out at me and just shouts BUY ME!! at the moment..

I really don't see features changing on RSC "In House" models, sure they'll provide a model with a fairly good likeness to the real thing, with substandard sounds (AP's business and Steam Sounds Supreme prove that the supplied sounds aren't up to scratch, otherwise they'd be out of business pretty quick).

So if you're after "Wow" rolling stock, then you need to rely on 3rd party items, however they may be sold (Steam via RSC, or their own websites).

Edit: before anyone says Class 66 v2, they were developed and remodelled with Oovee's help so not "In House"

[firetrap1]

I still prefer AP for the simple fact that you can re-download, at will, AP products without having to do a 2 hour long 'vertify cache' then re-install all your mods again.

The .ap file format (this is going to get confusing, AP products---.ap files ) should, in theory, prevent modifications being wiped out after a verify--admittedly there's a fair bit of confusion about how all this works and whether it actually is working as intended at the moment but, early days as they say. It's not hard, time consuming nor expensive to archive any installers to CD/DVD/removable media/web based storage for easy re-installation, neither is producing backups of the full game or parts of it. The argument that you might be stuck if you lost your install for whatever reason (you're more likely to lose it because of a hardware failiure than anything RSC/Steam can do) just doesn't hold up now.
More importantly, having to do a verify should be the exception not the rule; if you find you're having to do it often you have a serious underlying problem that will probably have more to do with your setup or methodology than a problem in the software itself.

I'm not sure I think you understood what I meant at the beginning. Also, you cannot make backups of Steam installers, however you can back up AP add-ons. It takes me +3hours to back up my entire 'Railworks' folder at present as it is very large (+90Gb), so I was simply stating that the other option was less time consuming.

More importantly, having to do a verify should be the exception not the rule

Not when every support email sent by RSC states this in the 2nd sentence:

In the meantime our team has found that many of the most common customer enquires regarding technical issues with Train Simulator can be easily rectified by verifying the game cache and clearing the blueprint cache.

I never said I was having to verify the game cache often, in fact I have only ever had to do it once. All I said was that the process of verifying the game cache takes a while to complete, and that the support from the AP site is far easier to work with when re-downloading individual products. This process is also very much faster than what RSC offer at present in my experience. I am very familiar with the ins and outs of TS2014 and I support Waggonz and AP in their decision if it helps progress the hobby.

[TElsmore]

This news doesn't faze me or put me off AP/Waggonz in the slightest. AP/Waggonz will always get my money because their products are always second to absolutely none, whether it's sound packs, scenario packs, loco packs, wagon packs, DMU packs, EMU packs, toasters, microwave's ( ), whatever. My point is that their products are always top, top quality and this one will be no different no matter where it is sold, so i'm in because i'm damn certain that they deserve all the revenue that they can rake in!......AP/Waggonz, i don't suppose that you boys will be considering a DBSO at any point willl you?........i'll get mi coat.

Cheers
Terrone

[Dave4468]

It's quite obvious the Class 90/Mk3 DVT Pack doesn't contain any Greater Anglia liveries so why would you purchase it if you wanted those?

Because it was one of your products. I'd thought it was either going to come as part of a scenario pack or from you as part of an update (both of which I would have happily parted money with for), plus the fact the default one has a full range of NXEA liveries. I'd used the faith I had in your company to not see something like this coming. I'd based my decision on my opinion of AP as an entity, an opinion with is now pretty tattered.

[Tankski]

What if RSC had made their own class 90? One that is of the same standards that the 87/67/66/360/whatever was released recently? I reckon that RSC were thinking about making one of their own but had approached AP/Waggonz and told them that they can either sell theirs through steam (in the form which is now known) or RSC will make their own (which will be sub par and not as good).

As gptech has said; This is AP's business and I'm failing to see how it is justifiable to tell him how to run his company. Vote with your wallet, show him that you don't like the fact AP's gone to steam, show that you don't like this sort of practice by all means, but it is his decision how to do things in the end.

my £0.02.

[phat2003uk]

It's quite obvious the Class 90/Mk3 DVT Pack doesn't contain any Greater Anglia liveries so why would you purchase it if you wanted those?

Because it was one of your products. I'd thought it was either going to come as part of a scenario pack or from you as part of an update (both of which I would have happily parted money with for), plus the fact the default one has a full range of NXEA liveries. I'd used the faith I had in your company to not see something like this coming. I'd based my decision on my opinion of AP as an entity, an opinion with is now pretty tattered.

I'm sorry you feel that way and of course, feel free to no longer purchase from us if you feel a single release has denigrated the value of our packs so much. It's probably best to know now that we are a business and not a charity. I implore you to purchase packs as supplied with no wishful thinking as it quite evident this has resulted in great disappointment.

It's worth heeding what Tankski says above too... This wasn't an easy cut and dry decision. It involved negotiation with RSC to try and provide the best value pack in the circumstances well as protecting the year's worth of time and effort the fellas at Waggonz have put into this pack. I reiterate, we are not a charity and have bills to pay. If this way of doing things is not successful then we obviously won't do it again but to not test the waters at all would be letting down the individuals who put months of their time into creating these packs who deserve a decent return for their time. All I ask is to cut us a bit of slack if you wish to see this standard of product to continue to be produced.

[deltic009]

It is a sad state of affairs to see Richard on here feeling he has to explain and defend himself against this ridiculous backlash, some people have been flat out rude or delusional - Dave4468, how is it APs fault that you made a preconception of how their business would proceed in your own mind and you were wrong?

I commend your outright commitment to being bitter about pretty much everything anyone ever does connected to DLC made for this sim:

Well then. I've finally gone and purchased it and its a very good route. However so many small errors that jump out to me, much as I predicted!

I know people are saying how wonderful it looks but something is annoying me about the quality.

And of course, how could RSC take peoples money in good faith without having bricked up windows at Derby Road - I'll call trading standards ASAP.

Richard, I'll be looking out for this on Steam as I'm yet to purchase the route and there may be an attractive bundle option for the pair. Both are equally deserving of my money and I hope you don't get turned off from continuing to produce such high quality addons for the sim. No doubt soon we will read with sadness how another fine developer is hounded of this board.

[JustRight]

Richard,

You have my support mate, no questions asked. Yours is arguably the best supported product set available for TS, I think I own every one of your products and speak from experience.
I'm really pleased to see that some new marketing alternatives have come about for you and the guys at Waggonz, I hope it is a great success for you all.

Cheers.

[DavidVI]

This might be pedantic but it says Greater Anglia liveries.. I can only see ex ONE and ex NXEA with GA branding.. I know these are the liveries GA are using but the GA livery itself is white with red doors. Which is the livery the 90/DVT set is in on the TV adverts.

Yes pedantic because currently I don't think any real 90's/DVTs hold the livery, but a few of the coaching stock does.

See:
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8342/8193 ... 9976_z.jpg - the 'real' GA livery with white body, red doors and GA logo.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7151/6471 ... c9f9_z.jpg - another variation without red doors or logo.

So I guess there won't be variants like this in the pack so we can make this mixed livery intercity's?
Or an update when the GA set's finally get totally redone?

I am most excited for this pack though... :p