Virtual British Rail

[spellow3010]

I like your avatar Rich.

Realistically - I just want to see a bit of social fun.

[SouthernElectric]

Hey all,

I guess I'm playing Devil's Advocate here (and am ready to be shot-down because of it!) as, although this sound like a great idea to get everyone's imaginations racing and possibly bring some much-needed feeling of worth and progression within the game.

But I'm just not sure how much of these ideas are going to be possible.

As it stands, all that is possible is;

1) Driver being sent an email outlining there current status and options of next assignment (?).
2) Being sent a rwp (from what would have to be a 'large' pool to cover all needs) depending on your next 'assignment'.
3) Completing said scenario and sending in a screenshot of your results (who's going to send one back that shows anything other than 'perfect' driving as there's no way to stop people from re-doing it.?!).
4) Someone keeping 'score' of everyone's 'progress' on a spreadsheet, possibly on-line for all to see.
5) Repeat..............

I can't see that, as an 'experience', that's much different than anyone can do now...
(I am able to choose to drive whatever I like, wherever I like, as long as I own the stock/route. So, I can choose, over the course of a day/week/month/whatever, to start driving a 03, progress along to a 14, then 31, 47, 66 -> 395. Whatever..............)

Unless there are many changes implemented in the core game itself, I can't see how any of the more 'exciting' ideas can even be started.

I'm missing something, I presume. Would someone care to explain what they are REALISTICALLY hoping to see implemented? Thanks!

One could take the above attitude Rich and choose to take a negative outlook and say "why should i do this...." but this is aimed at those that want to enhance the simulation by the simple addition of some extra guidelines (if they don't want to follow them why are they taking part?), the knowledge that they are under taking an activity that other like minded persons are doing and some authentic period paperwork. I think it's a novel approach and will probably get me using some DLC i've not touched in a long while.
Simon

[gptech]

There's nothing negative about asking pertinent questions, 'Devils Advocacy' is a much used and respected strategy to identify and resolve issues before they become problems.
This thread illustrates how a simple idea can be blown up by wishful thinking into something it could never be---an alternative scoring of a career progression series of scenarios grew into a grand multi-player experience where you could see who was driving the 5:15 on the 2D map.

For it to get off the ground some aims have to be established first, which means answering questions such as:

Which routes?
Which scenarios? Does this need new scenarios writing or is there a bank of suitable ones already available? (as BR Blue seems to be the favoured time line, do rosgars scenarios fit the bill?)
What happens if a player doesn't have all the stock?
How will it be scored? The game records a scenario as failed if you're late at an intermediate stop regardless of whether you make that time up for the final destination so how 'failed' is 'failed'?
Can the data for a scensrio's result be easily pulled out of the game and submitted to 'head office' for scoring? a screen shot showing 'SUCCESSFUL' really isn't enough, the whole log needs reviewing.

I'd love to see this take off, although I'm not one for playing a career type progression I could be tempted now and again but it needs more than just a few posts saying "good idea, go for it"

[SouthernElectric]

There's nothing negative about asking pertinent questions, 'Devils Advocacy' is a much used and respected strategy to identify and resolve issues before they become problems.
This thread illustrates how a simple idea can be blown up by wishful thinking into something it could never be---an alternative scoring of a career progression series of scenarios grew into a grand multi-player experience where you could see who was driving the 5:15 on the 2D map.

For it to get off the ground some aims have to be established first, which means answering questions such as:

Which routes?
Which scenarios? Does this need new scenarios writing or is there a bank of suitable ones already available? (as BR Blue seems to be the favoured time line, do rosgars scenarios fit the bill?)
What happens if a player doesn't have all the stock?
How will it be scored? The game records a scenario as failed if you're late at an intermediate stop regardless of whether you make that time up for the final destination so how 'failed' is 'failed'?
Can the data for a scensrio's result be easily pulled out of the game and submitted to 'head office' for scoring? a screen shot showing 'SUCCESSFUL' really isn't enough, the whole log needs reviewing.

I'd love to see this take off, although I'm not one for playing a career type progression I could be tempted now and again but it needs more than just a few posts saying "good idea, go for it"

I think you could be accused of reading too much into an idea, at no point has Jimmy stated there will be interactive maps and I don't believe he's going for point scoring either,my understanding is that this will all be based on paperwork (well excel based not really paper as such) that he will undertake in his own time at home. I've scanned and passed him a copy of a Tyne Drivers route card no doubt he'll convert it into a word document that can then have said drivers details entered at the top, in effect Jimmy will be Roster Clerk/Depot foreman, I've also got other paperwork that he at the moment perusing so it's early days.
Simon

[SouthernElectric]

Following on from comments on the TS2014 thread, I've been thinking about the prospect of setting up our very own FSX style virtual British Rail! Just want to gauge interest and opinion.

Only in crude idea form at the moment but I'm thinking it would operate entirely outside of Steam and RSC control and be administered independently of the sim itself. It would probably consist of members being emailed a scenario rwp together with a roster detailing their service to drive. On completion, possibly you would have to email a screenshot of the completed scenario screen back to the 'roster clerk'. Your mileage and performance would be logged on a spreadsheet and any safety infringements (SPADS, emergency brake applications) would be recorded and if continued would be dealt with by the training team!

This could be as big or as small as interest dictates. At the very least it would offer some structure and sense of purpose to your driving.

In terms of how it would work, I'm thinking maybe an open scenario where all AI stock runs to a timetable and you click on the service you are rostered to drive. I'll have to do some research into what kind of data gets recorded after an 'open' scenario. If that doesn't work I might have to think of an alternative method. Perhaps clone the same scenario over and over but with a different service set as the player train each time.

There would be the added bonus of knowing which of your fellow shed mates were rostered to other services you would see in the scenario!

Early days but any thoughts welcome.

Infact gptech, have a gander at the above, it's quite clear and free of fancy gimmicks like "interactive 2D maps, points scoring etc" and is as I thought based on good old office work , much like a local depot would operate in BR days before PCs and Black boxes and the dreaded download.....
Simon

[RichyV]

I don't believe either gptech or I were intending on pouring scorn or derision on this idea.

And certainly, as you say, the OP never mentioned these 'bigger' ideas. But they have certainly come up in the thread by those very people interested in this idea to, quote, "Give the sim a new lease of life".

My post was simply an attempt to find out what would realistically be do-able within the current confines of the program compared to what users wanted to see. It would be a shame if the hard work of people, such as yourself and Jimmy to put something together, became 'wasted' as other users expectations of what you could do was unrealistic.

From his post, I believe gptech's take on this was similar to mine, not wanting expectations to outrun by miles what was actually possible.

I apologise though if my post seemed overly negative, as I would not want to decry anyone's hard work in adding to people's enjoyment.

[jimmyshand]

Simon is right, this is not some idea to change the core game and create some complex multiplayer function. It is simply a 'possible' idea to introduce some structure to the way you drive for those that might want to do such a thing. I think it's safe to say that GPtech and Richyv will not be interested and can stick with the 'career' system that RSC offer!

Some of us like to use this sim as a way of simulating being a driver. There is nothing at all in the base product that offers any realistic structure outside of the actual hands on driving part. Real world drivers don't turn up in the morning, look at a map of the world and ponder over which service they would like to drive that day. Real world drivers cover certain route(s) and are assigned services to drive and their mileage and progression is recorded.

That's the idea, simple as that.

[SouthernElectric]

I don't believe either gptech or I were intending on pouring scorn or derision on this idea.

And certainly, as you say, the OP never mentioned these 'bigger' ideas. But they have certainly come up in the thread by those very people interested in this idea to, quote, "Give the sim a new lease of life".

My post was simply an attempt to find out what would realistically be do-able within the current confines of the program compared to what users wanted to see. It would be a shame if the hard work of people, such as yourself and Jimmy to put something together, became 'wasted' as other users expectations of what you could do was unrealistic.

From his post, I believe gptech's take on this was similar to mine, not wanting expectations to outrun by miles what was actually possible.

I apologise though if my post seemed overly negative, as I would not want to decry anyone's hard work in adding to people's enjoyment.

My perception of your post was it was quite scornful and negative and like gptechs severely overshot the original intentions set out clearly in Jimmys first post, which I have quoted in a previous post that is currently awaiting moderation.
Jimmy has made no grand claims to reinvent the sim, tinker with the core programme etc etc, all he has suggested is an office role for himself and some simple adherence to following some rules.
Take the following for example, you receive from Jimmy a RWP for an activity for a trip from Oxford to Paddington semi-fast with a 47/4. Jimmys sent this as you've already completed so many hours on the class according to his records and he knows you sign the route as you've completed a route learning course and answered questions about the route (this is where the honesty comes into play). Along with the rwp is a pdf containing a WON outlining some booked speed restrictions that you will encounter en-route as well as a document covering late notices for any last minute T3s or emergency Speed restrictions. So from that you can see there is no fancy tweaks or gimmicks just some immersive paperwork and aderhance to following some simple rules.
Simon

[gptech]

Simon, neither Richy or myself stated that jimmy said "etc, etc" but the thread did move along to a "wish list" and "what if" discussion where interactive 2D maps etc were proposed/wished for by posters.
To work within the confines of the game this project has to adhere to jimmy initial, simple idea---quote it all you want to me, maybe those who are expecting "bells and whistles" might re-read it and lower their sights.

[tubemad]

Manually logging your journey would be done by trust, seems to work OK with the Virtual Airline I'm with. Some people probably don't like see the concept behind just driving and logging hours but it isn't going to be everyones cup of tea of course, though it will be for some.

It's exactly what I do in the skies at the moment, pick a departure flight, set myself up in a FlyBe aircraft, note departure time, take off, land, note arrival time, fill in the form manually stating what time you departed/arrived, send it off, done.
No one seems to log a silly amount of hours but that would probably be because 1, it might look odd that you did Heathrow to Edinburgh in 20 minutes or 30 hours, and 2, there is no gold medal or awards at the end of it that would be of any benefit so there is absolutely no point in making up figures.

I suspect the above would work with a VR too if the website had a form you could send off. You also work by Pilot ranking but you can chose the plane you want. For a VR, I'd say working through the ranks from shunting and freight to expresses is an idea, maybe ranking up would be based on how many hours you have done, so if the threshold for Express link is, say, 40 hours, you'd need to do 40 hours on the previous 'rank' to move up..if you get what I mean..

[gptech]

OK, this is probably going to sound argumentative but I feel it's important to try and see where the confusion some memebers have shown about what is intended comes from.

Infact gptech, have a gander at the above, it's quite clear and free of fancy gimmicks like "interactive 2D maps, points scoring etc"

Yes, but in other musings...

The next scenario then sees the morning shift drivers sign on to take the first trains north. Meanwhile other scenarios will also be running at the Bristol end where some other drivers will be preparing to head south west. Somewhere in the middle you will pass your mates!

There would be the added bonus of knowing which of your fellow shed mates were rostered to other services you would see in the scenario!

Easy to see now how/why some members were given the impression that this was intended to be something more multi-player or interactive than is possible.

"Scoring" is possibly a case of "a rose by any other name..." if this is intended to be a progression from (for example) a shunter driver to a main line express driver the intermediate roles (for example) such as local freight train driver, express freight train driver can only be assigned when the player matches certain criteria. Call it scoring, call it ranking, call it appraisal but they all come down to the drivers performance being measured and evaluated---just as in real life, which is what the whole project is about, surely?

Your mileage and performance would be logged on a spreadsheet and any safety infringements (SPADS, emergency brake applications) would be recorded

I'm also good with Microsoft Excel so I will be able to create a log to record everyone's progress. I would be able to make the file available for everyone to view so you would be able to see how you're getting on. I would also be able to display graphs showing how good your time keeping is, adherence to safety etc.

The game records time keeping in rather a different way to real life, more than 30 seconds late (I believe) at a scheduled stop and the scenario is classed as failed, but as we all know in real life this isn't the case. Many would say that the RSC 'Career System' fails because of the acceleration and braking needed to 'successfully' complete the scenarios so how is it proposed to work round this limitation?
Of course a well written scenario with realistic timings helps but there's a fine line between realistic and too slack to be anything of a challenge. As an example consider a local commuter train departing from a busy terminus. Initially the timings are liable to be tight, to fit in with other traffic but as the train reaches less congested areas recovery time comes in to play. The standard of the scenarios will probably be the biggest factor in whether this stands or falls.

[jimmyshand]

Don't forget also that this was originally a sounding out thread looking for thoughts, ideas and input. The fact there are posts going 'out of the scope'' is good because it sparks discussion and thought. Who knows there might be someone reading who does have the technical ability and resource to make it highly complex?

Nothing is final yet, nowhere near, but the concept is simple and will appeal to those who want to take the immersion up a notch. Nobody will be having their access to other routes or scenarios restricted! This plan is just to add another dimension strictly for those to whom it has appeal.

[SouthernElectric]

OK, this is probably going to sound argumentative but I feel it's important to try and see where the confusion some memebers have shown about what is intended comes from.

Never a truer word said gptech, amusing how i've seen you post regarding people posting in a negative light on other topics regarding RSC bashing and i'm struggling to find one shred of positivity through this whole thread. Jimmys post clearly doesn't say "MULTI-PLAYER" or any phrase that gives light to that possibility or belief.
It's clear what Jimmys referring to in that player A is starting from Exeter on his PC, Player B is starting from Bristol on his PC, both players driving on totally separate machines but each in the knowledge that somebody somewhere else is driving the same route but from a different PC, whats to stop players A and B talking to each other via email, twitter, FB, text etc etc and saying "i've got my job from Jimmy and it involves driving from Bristol to Exeter" the other chap replies "me too but i'm driving the 0715 from Exter so I'll pass you at Taunton".
You also posted a Jimmy qoute to which I will refer you to again

There would be the added bonus of knowing which of your fellow shed mates were rostered to other services you would see in the scenario!

You know what each other is driving so what's to stop you waving or blowing your horn at the passing train??? he can't see you but it's a simulation and I know what i'd do.
Anyway I've just re-read your post and i've struggled to find anything of real substance, you've failed to offer anything concrete to the debate other than random musings of negativity. Leave Jimmy to his virtual depot and if it doesn't pan out then feel free to P.M me with your sage words of wisdom.
This will probably be my last post before i moderated for life so goodbye UKTS.
Simon

[SouthernElectric]

gptech you're spot on with you're opening gambit insomuch as that you're being argumentative, as a man who strives to pull people up when they are being negative about RSC you're doing a good job at being hypocritical. Your pulling apart this whole thread and nit picking the slightest fault in his use of English you can find.
It's clear to me and no doubt others what Jimmy means by the post you've quoted, it's not about multi-player it's about knowing what others are doing.This is the second reply i've penned, the first was made at 16:34 yesterday and disappeared into the moderated ether, i'm hoping this one makes it through.
Why not sit back and if this idea goes belly up then feel free to PM myself to tell me why it failed in your opinion.
Simon

[gptech]

Simon and jimmy,
if you'd care to review this thread and identity which of my posts have poured scorn on the idea, on the suggested implementation of the idea or in any way have been disrespectful to either of you I'd be more than happy to publicly apologise and beg your forgiveness.