Pushing Wagons

[GavNormandale]

Hi, been away a while but been playing again and loving the WLOS, never driven steam much before but enjoying on this route, was going to post this question in the driving and firing sticky but locked for some reason!

on one of the scenarios i was required to push the consist quite a distance to a different yard, is there a speed limit when the loco is pushing a train or is safe to drive the line speed, didnt seem right to do so to me!

cheers

Gav

[malkymackay]

Off the top of my head, I think that propelling movements were normally limited to 15-20mph.

[longbow]

Interesting question. Having the train loco at rear on running lines would raise a number of safety issues so I imagine it would not normally be permitted. But local exceptions to normal practice were often made. For example, trains working the Co-Op siding just outside Bath Green Park were permitted to propel wagons to and from Bath Yard.

[malkymackay]

Just had a look at the nearest document I have that is appropriate, the 1969 Scottish Region Sectional Appendix.
The speed must not exceed 20mph, and down inclines steeper than 1 in 200, through station platforms and over level crossings must not exceed 15mph.
The locations where propelling vehicles is allowed outwith station limits is listed under Section F of the the SA. The locations listed include any limitations on the number of vehicles and/or weather conditions. For example:
Between Stranraer Harbour Jn & Stranraer Harbour: 20 Freight Vehicles or 15 ECS.
Between Stranraer Harbour & Stranraer Harbour Jn: 9 ECS (In clear weather only.)
The various exceptions in the Carlisle area takes up 2 1/2 pages

[spellow3010]

Is the scenario the one with the reasonably long freight train arriving at Carlisle from the north avoiding the station (Currock?).

I must admit that I was uncomfortable with propelling a long train like that at anything approaching the line speed on the HUD. I propelled at a modest 5mph, and trusted that if I were in the ., the guard in the brake van who was then at the 'front' of the train would have alerted me to any problems, having actually been the one who set the hand points etc.

The first scenario I did was the small passenger train arriving at Stranraer Harbour with some associated run-round and propelling involved to get the stock to Stranraer Town. Not being an expert in the location of the time, I was surprised at the propelling involved, but it was fascinating stuff. Again though, I was not prepared to get up to line speed on what was pretty much a blind shunt. Again, I would have been expecting my guard to be watching through his portal on the roof, and be prepared to apply the brakes himself if I was heading into the . ...

Loving it.

[crumplezone]

Also as a addition to malkymackay's information, the speeds would be further reduced or adjusted according to the type of stock being moved e.g. fitted and unfitted. Either way I certainly wouldn't want to be the guard on a propelling unfitted train crossing over a mainline or major junction, especially as your little else beyond a flag to signal the locomotive way behind you on the load.

In regards to the scenario mentioned I believe I kept to 15mph at maximum to allow for stopping of the train and encase the AI black 5s were hellbent on trying to ram me (its been abit harder to tell signals with the HUD changes )

Have to hand it to Keith and his scenario writing, the scenarios really are engaging and give you quite a steam era feel to them.

[GavNormandale]

hi thanks for all the replies, i did settle on an 15-20mph limit so guessed good,

@spellow, i think there are a couple of scenarios where there a push is needed the one i ran last night was the milk and cookies scenario max line speed i remember coming across was 30 and felt this was too fast to be realistic, while playing this i decided to ask

cheers

Gav

[Rockdoc2174]

Although the sim may not reproduce it, when pushing the buffers are pressed together and that's inherently less flexible than when they're being pulled via a central coupling. The forces are applied in an offset fashion so there's a greater risk of derailment.

Keith

[Ximmy]

What about pulling them with the loco facing backwards? (ie facing the opposite direction of travel)
I see that a lot with kettles why would they do that?

[AndyUK]

Running tender first, or bunker first in the case of a tank engine, was necessary when there were no facilities to turn the loco round. Turntables weren't installed at all locations where a loco might drop off one train and then take another back the way it hasd just come, and opportunites to turn the engine on a nearby triangle were even rarer.

I think there might well have been a lower speed limit imposed when running tender first, but that probably didn't apply to tank engines running bunker first. In practise I expect that the limit would be how much discomfort the crew would put up with - especially in winter!

Andy L

[FoggyMorning]

Running tender first, or bunker first in the case of a tank engine, was necessary when there were no facilities to turn the loco round. Turntables weren't installed at all locations where a loco might drop off one train and then take another back the way it hasd just come, and opportunites to turn the engine on a nearby triangle were even rarer.

I think there might well have been a lower speed limit imposed when running tender first, but that probably didn't apply to tank engines running bunker first. In practise I expect that the limit would be how much discomfort the crew would put up with - especially in winter!

Andy L

The other eventuality would be where a turntable was installed, but it was not of sufficient length to turn the locomotive in question. I seem to remember reading recently that the turntable at Kirkcudbright was too short to accommodate a class 4 tank, necessitating a bunker first run back to Castle Douglas.

[markpullinger]

Hi, I think that sometimes trains had to be pushed, if there weren't facilities to run round the train at it's destination & they didn't want the loco trapped there till the train returned.

[crumplezone]

Tender first operation would also be utilised for short hop freight and colliery traffic in a radius of 10-15miles, much to the hate of many driver and fireman for both line of sight issues and the blowback of coal fragments coming off a filled tender and especially in bad weather.

For the most part it was, as mentioned, due down to lack of turntable facility or length of the locomotive, though exceptions like the above were pretty common in the yorkshire area which had oodles of colliery traffic.