Demand For Freeware Routes?

[mikesimpson]

I have been working on a route for around 4 years now and it is almost complete, but I doubt it will ever be released simply because as I built it for my own amusement, I have added assets from all over the place over the years, and now many of these assets are no longer available and I have no idea who the authors were.

I could always release it, when finished, with all the assets in place and hope that all the authors had given permission for their assets to be used in freeware routes, but no doubt someone would spoil the party and jump up and down screaming 'Copyright', thus causing more trouble than it is worth.

I have a feeling there are many more routes out there in the same state, and this is the same problem we had with MSTS, people upload assets then don't want them used

Mike

[Rockdoc2174]

Hi Keith and yes that would be good. My only concern with doing one for the freeware S&C right now is that I understand it is still being extended and improved etc. (I could be wrong). This could result in a scenario pack not working at a later date if the track got changed in some way. Some track changes break scenarios, some don't.

Jim, it doesn't necessarily follow that a route change will break a scenario of course and, in any case, I see no reason why a pack couldn't be flagged as only being guaranteed to run with a particular version of a route. Scenarios that are known to work with a later version could be incorporated into a separate pack for that, along with new ones or fixed versions of broken ones.

Why not select a couple of routes - perhaps one long and one short but which both offer opportunities for varied scenarios? - that have been downloaded a fair number of times so that there's a target audience, set some parameters and let people get creative? Do we need a Challenge so that there's at least a nominal deadline and the pack(s) can be created sooner rather than later?

Keith (another one)

[ashgray]

Jim does have a point though. I'm a big fan of the freeware S&C route and have been following it since its inception and downloading each version as its released. Each new version has broken most earlier scenarios not designed for it - some I've successfully managed to fix but quiet a few not.

I wouldn't want to be in Jim's shoes if a new version was released that broke freeware pack scenarios - after all, how many people would want to use the older version of the route in order to run those scenarios?

It's probably better to await the final version, then do one.

Ash

[Darpor]

This is an issue when releasing subsequent versions of a route and although not a demand or requirement of a freeware author, it is helpful to "lock off" development of a previous version when moving forward.

As an example, after the release of Cresston V2.1, I was completely naive as to what my actions could potentially cause in terms of backwards compatibility for scenarios. What I did for V3, was make no record of what portals or markers existed and deleted some completely, unfortunately ensuring that it would break any current scenarios when V3 was released. We are talking the early days of RW here, before the timetable editor, when people could spend literally days creating a scenario, only for me to make it useless with a click of the mouse.

Now conscious of this, V4 is in progress but anything from V3 remains intact. As V3 was well supported by the community, I felt there was a duty to keep continuation here despite it not being required but if you break the work of those who have taken the time and effort to support you, you can naturally expect that they will be more cautious about supporting you in any future versions.

The key thing is to plan ahead really and although you don't have to, we appreciate what you do anyway, try and develop methods that will help users make the best use of and support what you have created.

[Leaf85]

I think what drew me to the freeware routes I do have (C&O Allegheny by Toripony, and Stephens excellent Candlewick) is the passion the artists have for their routes and to me that really shines through-- it's more of the 'art' of route building, and perhaps the stories surrounding the particular route that mean something personal to the artist give it that extra personality? I would probably use more freeware routes if it was easier for me to 'round up' the various and sundry bits required (read I need more patience lol). Anyway, just my tuppence.

Kind regards,
Dave

[theokus]

I have been working on a route for around 4 years now and it is almost complete, but I doubt it will ever be released simply because as I built it for my own amusement, I have added assets from all over the place over the years, and now many of these assets are no longer available and I have no idea who the authors were.

I could always release it, when finished, with all the assets in place and hope that all the authors had given permission for their assets to be used in freeware routes, but no doubt someone would spoil the party and jump up and down screaming 'Copyright', thus causing more trouble than it is worth.

I have a feeling there are many more routes out there in the same state, and this is the same problem we had with MSTS, people upload assets then don't want them used

Mike

Mike, you are too good for this world...as I am too
I think I am right.

But I used only official scenery...made by Railworks and co.

And I also made some objects bij myself.
You'll find them at UKTrainSim.
As I look at the number of downloads compared with the number of people asking me permission I count 4.
And I did give them permission And free use of it.

I could also count > 2524 downloads at £2. That's a 1/2 new car Mike Not a big one, ok.
I use 3DS Max > costing me £
I use an expensive pc > costing me £
And I did put a lot of work in it.
I guess you get the picture not?
But I am not stingy and not a miser
I was glad to do this for other users here.
Because I got a lot of help from the users here too.

[bigvern]

With MSTS it was pretty much a given that uploading assets meant anyone using them would have to include them with a finished route, as that is how the folder/file structure worked.

I'm not really sure how we arrived at the slightly curious situation we have with RW, where some routes require you to go on a scavenger hunt and for items which no longer exist.

It's certainly much easier - for example I just downloaded the Pilbara mining route for MSTS from Steam4Me. Apart from waiting for the timeout on Hotfiles to get the rolling stock, I was up and running with a couple of clicks. Contrast that with what I'll need to do to run CKP, not helped by the RW Package Manager insisting on going back to the Desktop to find RW files rather than to the folder last visited, i.e. Unzipped to get the next one!

[Kariban]

I gave up on the package manager when the RW3 one decided to take 40+ mins to refresh. Just open the rwps in an archiver program & extract it all to your RW root by hand. Given I don't use the package manager to uninstall either, not losing out on anything.

[bdy26]

Hold fire Vern, I will sort it. It was my own naivety of not knowing the first thing about routebuilding when I started, and going "oh that looks nice I'll use that" then having to work out what i'd used later. Not helped when people develop things in the KUJU folder so you can't identify them I had no idea whether what I was creating would be worth releasing. Complete lack of planning on my part.

The packager is completely shot, I just unzip things with 7zip and drag them across. I'm going to start using clickteam installers for reskins as it even longer to creater the RWP files.

B

[Retro]

The Central Route only involves two downloads from other places. I had to seek a lot of permissions but I feel it was worth it in the end. I got the original idea from Bob who packaged as much of the Leafy Suburbs assets with the Route Package as he was able.
Regarding Scenarios. The TS-2012 update from RW 2 broke 22. I have had some misfortune with these as several relied on third party Locomotives which had problems due to the new Version and needed something doing by RSC which they have only fixed in the latest Update. I thought I could release them and then I discovered the coupling bug brought on by the latest Update has rendered several more redundant. It would be pointless to release these until the current problems are fixed. The points Jim and Ash made are very relevant and is not only affected by what the Route Builder does in relation to alterations but also RSC. As Darren pointed out I now note all Markers, Portals etc to try not to cause problems for people who have made Scenarios already but it is not an easy task. I am hoping to get the Route finished and optimised before TS-2013 but some things are beyond the Route Builders control.
Kind regards James.

[jarmstro]

Freeware keeps the Sim (and my interest in it) alive. i like the way a freeware route evolves over time rather than just paying 25 quid and that it; Warts and all. Take it or leave it.

And there's one UK Main Line that I would bet my last pound that RSC will never build no matter how many extra staff they take on!! It's ripe for a freeweare effort!! With it's root in London it goes through city, town and glorious countryside and was one of the busiest and most congested routes in the country for many years after the war. Electrification from the capital was slow and even today it is electried for only a part of it's mileage!! In the 50's you would see Electric Loco's, Steam loco,s DMU's and EMU's all using the route. And half way out from London there was a record 4min changeover from Electric to Steam traction..................................

John A

[bdy26]

Being the wrong end of Sunday dinner I'm struggling to guess.... I'm the kind of fool who might try something like that...

Clue?

B

[FoggyMorning]

My guess would be the GC/Met joint lines

[SquidvT]

Freeware is vital for the Sims progression. It keeps payware devs on their toes. Often we've seen freeware releases that can easily match if not better any payware offering. Thats a good thing. I guess it also helps that they are labors of love and not subject to publisher deadlines.

Where Freeware falls down is the list of other downloads required. It would be churlish to look a gift horse in the mouth, but quite often ill see a Freeware release i'm interested in only to be stopped in my tracks when i see the required asset list.

Its great that designers use other stuff, and I am sure that such routes would be impossible without it. But too often the lists of required assets are either incomplete or the file IDs are unknown to UKTrainsim file search.

Having a simple installer, as per the freeware packs has to be the future. Part of my justification to myself for shedding out on payware is that I tell myself, at least i wont spend a couple of hours downloading extra stuff. This isnt just the case for routes but also Activities too.

That said, (and i do think it a salient point) I have nothing but admiration for the freeware designers. Two of my all time fav routes are freeware (S&C and Cockermouth to Penrith). My sim would be a bleaker place without them and kudos to you.

One other thing i would add, is that in these days of easy e-commerce, paypal and cheap hosting, there is nothing to stop Freeware designers offering their creations in return for a modest fee. As mentioned I would happily pay in order to avoid the "Asset Shuffle". Just a thought

[partyspiritz]

It is because of freeware I still have an interest. As I have said before it has also become good therapy after my stroke. I do a few local exhibitions and most of what is shown is freeware routes.

The Bacup Branch was born in Rail Simulator and has evolved with each update. I like to think that me and Peter Holton brought back to life a piece of history for others to enjoy.


Regards


John