Activity ended - Run out of water!!

[slipperman12]

Hi Gentlemen,
Recently the problem of using Loose Consist or Traffic (AI) steam locos to take over from a Player loco was aired on this thread : http://forums.uktrainsim.com/viewtopic. ... 5#p1525268 .

The problem is that the water in the tender is not correct (also, in many cases, the coal in the tender is totally wrong!). I can't claim this is my discovery, because I found the solution in the MSTS Forum on trainsim.com in a posting by Paul (farrmp) dated 31 Aug 2008.

Towards the bottom of each .eng file are a couple of lines like this :

comment(fire temp, fire mass, water mass, boiler pressure,
water level, tender_water_mass, tender_coal_mass,
smoke_quantity, fire_condition, coal quality )

EngineVariables( 775 1650 3000 200 0.5 35000 11200 350 1 1 )

The 5th entry - water level - is typically a value between 0 and 1 : IT MUST BE REMOVED!!
This will then put the tender_water_mass and tender_coal_mass values in the correct positions to be read correctly.
The list should have 9 values instead of 10.

My further investigations show that the first 4 values are used by ALL locos, whereas the tender water and coal values are only used by Loose Consist and AI locos. I have no idea where the last 3 values are used, or whether they are affected by the removal of the 5th item

The Eng & Wag file Manual by Rudolf Richter and Joe Realmuto isn't very forth-coming about the EngineVariables values, in fact it doesn't explain much at all! Sorry, I don't know where I got this from, and can't trace it here or at trainsim.com.
There is also the Eng File Breakdown (available on this site as file ID 2855), uploaded by Alan Barry Heath (Alan2) in August 2002, which shows only 9 values for this parameter, so the validity of the water_level value has been known for some time.

It would appear that even very recent steam locos appearing in the UKTS library have 10 values in EngineVariables. Could I ask that modellers check any future uploads, please? I know it's easy for us old hands to amend, but for newbies and those who are wary of delving into the innards of MSTS, I'm sure it'd be welcome.

If any of the Wizards on this site can expand on the use, and the effects, of the last 3 values, please do so!

Cheers,
Ged

[jbilton]

Hi Ged
I think it might matter if your using auto or manual fireman.
I think if you adjust the last 3 values, you can start a steam engine 'cold' on manual firing, as in real life.
I once did one, but got bored after an hour of boiling up..... and still only about 90psi.


I don't know if its related but there was a bug on the tender line ( can't remember the setting)... but it stopped Tank engines taking on water.

If Rick Gibbs drops by, I'm sure he'll have some knowledge.

Cheers
Jon

[dennisat]

In my trainsim Techdocs folder the original eng-wag file reference doc also only lists 9 variables - no water_level. I wonder where the 10 variable list came from?

Dennis

[jbilton]

In my trainsim Techdocs folder the original eng-wag file reference doc also only lists 9 variables - no water_level. I wonder where the 10 variable list came from?

Dennis

Hi Dennis
I don't know .... checking an original Scotsman eng file .... its there.

Cheers
Jon

[dennisat]

Probably one of those things that were planned but never implemented - or properly implemented. MSTSBIN George apparently found several examples. Perhaps the Scotsman was developed expecting this value but when it was dropped, it was never taken out of the Scotsman's eng file.

Idle speculation!
A diversion from the mind numbing job of fencing in Route Editor. And before anyone suggests it, I know you can gantry place fencing. However, having fencing at the bottom of cuttings and the top of embankments looks a bit odd to my eye.

Dennis

[gswindale]

In my mind, seeing as we are looking at a list that is defined as

comment(fire temp, fire mass, water mass, boiler pressure,
water level, tender_water_mass, tender_coal_mass,
smoke_quantity, fire_condition, coal quality )

EngineVariables( 775 1650 3000 200 0.5 35000 11200 350 1 1 )

There are 10 headings. Thus there should be 10 entries.
Whilst I take the point that the 5th entry should be removed; what happens if the 5th entry is switched with the 6th (for instance)? It appears to me that the way the comment entry is laid out is correct; but the contents of the EngineVariables is wrong - presume the first 4 are correct, the 5th is in the wrong place, but are the 7th - 10th correct (i.e. which of those should the 5th be shifted into)?

[slipperman12]

Hi Gentlemen,
Many thanks for your comments!

the original eng-wag file reference doc also only lists 9 variables - no water_level.

I didn't think of looking at the Tech Docs, but it appears that the download (ID 2855) I mentioned, is that document

there was a bug on the tender line ( can't remember the setting)

I've checked a couple of tender locos, and they have "IsTenderRequired ( 1 )", but of two tank locos, one has ( 0.1) and the other has ( 0 ), although I suppose 0.1 will be interpreted as zero. I have seen -1 used, but have done any more checking....yet!

what happens if the 5th entry is switched with the 6th (for instance)?

The problem caused when using loose consist/traffic locos to replace a Player loco is that the Tender Water Mass is taken from the 5th value and the Tender Coal Mass from the 6th value; if the 5th value is in the range 0 to 1, that explains why there is no water available! It also explains why the coal level is, in some cases, a ridiculouly high value.
I've not been able to determine if the last 3 values are in their correct positions; I've used the 3rd press of F5 to check most of the values.

checking an original Scotsman eng file .... its there.

Even stranger is the fact that while the Scotsman and Pendennis have the 'water level' value, the Golsdorf 380 and RoyalScotClass locos only have 9 values, omitting the 'water level'
It can't be an after-thought because the dates of the Scotsman and Golsdorf eng files are 9/5/2001 and those for Pendennis and RoyalScotClass are 8/5/2001. It also can't be different between Player and AI locos because there is one in each camp!

Isn't MSTS a wonderful thing

Cheers,
Ged

[dennisat]

Isn't MSTS a wonderful thing

Absolutely! But despite all its quirks, isn't it amazing the results that've been obtained with it. I sometimes wonder if Open Rails will have to have a "Quirk Emulating" mode so that legacy content will work as designed.

Dennis

[jbilton]

Hi Gentlemen,

Even stranger is the fact that while the Scotsman and Pendennis have the 'water level' value, the Golsdorf 380 and RoyalScotClass locos only have 9 values, omitting the 'water level'
It can't be an after-thought because the dates of the Scotsman and Golsdorf eng files are 9/5/2001 and those for Pendennis and RoyalScotClass are 8/5/2001. It also can't be different between Player and AI locos because there is one in each camp!

Isn't MSTS a wonderful thing

Cheers,
Ged

Hi Ged
Interesting ....as you say it discounts a few logical explanations
Makes me wonder if its related to the boiler angle value ?
Can't check myself ATM ..... and not really a steam man myself ( so only guessing).

Cheers
Jon

[jimmyladd]

there was a bug on the tender line ( can't remember the setting)

I've checked a couple of tender locos, and they have "IsTenderRequired ( 1 )", but of two tank locos, one has ( 0.1) and the other has ( 0 ), although I suppose 0.1 will be interpreted as zero. I have seen -1 used, but have done any more checking....yet!

If you set thender required to 0 msts thinks its a tender engine with no tender on it, so no matter what water and caol your carrying, you'll not be getting any where its needed. If its set to 0.1 or -1 msts assumes its carried onboard like a tankengine. Amazes me how many tank engines there still are in the library still with it set to 0.

[slipperman12]

Hi all,

Amazes me how many tank engines there still are in the library still with it set to 0.

Yes! Thanks Jimmy, for your information - I was puzzled by that. I think there should be a 'Handbook for MSTS' with all corrections and tips that have been discovered over the last 10 years! Mind you, we'll probably be still discovering new tips in 5 years time

I started this thread because I had a specific problem, the solution to which was found within the EngineVariables parameter in the .eng file. Since then, I've been investigating other values in that parameter, but since it's not covered by the description of this thread, I've started a new one : http://forums.uktrainsim.com/viewtopic. ... 5#p1526615

Cheers,
Ged