Public Thank you

[bigphill2]

Hi all
Ts 2012 has created some updating of our DLC content to make it fully compatible, lights , rain on screen etc . This has created two camps of Developers some who have supplied the upgrades for FREE and others that claim there product is not just updated but indeed brand new stock to be repurchased again. I'm not here to name names or throw mud just thank those who have kept a community feel about the game. Next time you have to decide who gets your money remember this issue and support the guys out there who are supporting us.

A VERY BIG THANKS.....Phill

[Oldpufferspotter]

Hi,
In my opinion it depends on what has changed in the model.
If the old model stays the same and has only the extra attributes added, yes one can reasonably expect a free update. But if the old model has been discarded and a completely new model made, with more detail included with the new enhancements, then I think a charge for that is reasonable, perhaps with a discount for those customers who have previously bought the old model.
A BR Mk1 TSO is a BR Mk1 TSO, but in the model/train sim world each model can vary quite a lot, the differences being in the detail included or excluded, whether having the original or improved sounds, and whether any errors in modelling have been corrected (toilet water filling pipes on the wrong end of the roof, for example).
regards Ted.

[transadelaide]

Hi,
In my opinion it depends on what has changed in the model.
If the old model stays the same and has only the extra attributes added, yes one can reasonably expect a free update. But if the old model has been discarded and a completely new model made, with more detail included with the new enhancements, then I think a charge for that is reasonable, perhaps with a discount for those customers who have previously bought the old model.
A BR Mk1 TSO is a BR Mk1 TSO, but in the model/train sim world each model can vary quite a lot, the differences being in the detail included or excluded, whether having the original or improved sounds, and whether any errors in modelling have been corrected (toilet water filling pipes on the wrong end of the roof, for example).
regards Ted.

I don't agree. The problem, as the OP said is that some providers are giving us completely new models for free while others are charging for "new products" when all that has changed is the folder structure.

Case in point - the upgrade to TS2012. We got, for free...
The Hitachi Super Express.
A completely new SD40-2.
A completely new Class 47.
A completely new Class 166.
New Mark One coaches.
The ATSF Warbonnet DLC added to the core.

I agree with supporting those developers who support the community, and judging the 'new products' of those who don't harshly on the basis of value and quality. I can think of two developers in particular with plenty of previous form on the board that would fit in the second category.

[2slow4u]

Next time you have to decide who gets your money remember this issue and support the guys out there who are supporting us.

I will do it, for sure!

[bigvern]

It is a grey area and as I remarked in another thread, a few upgrades - particularly just to retain compatability with the new version - should not warrant a fresh purchase. With regard to the Meshtools Class 50 situation, I purchased this some time ago and, while I have the greatest respect for Mike and ever grateful for his collaboration on Blackpool Tramway, I have to say I don't agree with his decision to put the refurbished version on Steam with no rebate or consideration for prior purchasers. The only time I paid twice for something in the train sim scene was when Auran refused to bundle TC3 in TS2009/TS2010, instead doing a few tweaks and selling it separately as the S&C 2009 pack. It's the same reason why I will not pay again for IOW on DLC, even though it means running the obsolete CD version.

At best I will wait until the December Steam sales to pick up any re-issued stuff for the £3.00 mark, but there's enough new content coming out to have a much higher priority over buying a new version of something you already own at the full price.

[nobkins]

I think you are expecting a little too much. Getting stuff for free is great. This does not mean I expect every developer to do this. Nor does it make me feel like the developer has done wrong by me when they choose to charge for a new model or a significant update. I get to choose if I purchase the new model / update. I am not required to. Does my enjoyment of what I purchased get reduced because I don't have the new model/update? No is the answer.

Vern raised the issue of the completely new Class 50 model from MeshTools being released via Steam.
To summarise Vern feelings. He feels that MeshTools decision to release a completely new model of the Class 50 through Steam which thus prevents a discount being offered to those who already have it is wrong (in Vern's words "I don't agree with his decision")

In what way have you lost out though. Did you purchase the Class 50 under the assumption that you would get a free new model in a couple of years time? If anything releasing a new model which uses the same dev folder will bring you advantages. All the additional people who purchase the new Class 50 may well create scenarios. Your original model will be able to use these scenarios (due to the same developer folder) this extending your enjoyment for a total of £0.

I would also encourage everyone to widen the criteria they use to form their opinion of a developer. MeshTools have given away the Class 24 to everyone for free and it is now part of the Freeware Packs. It was originally an item of DLC. You also acknowledge his help with the Blackpool Trams route which is also free. They have attended UKTS Live events and at the last show gave away free copies of the ESR route. They have donated substantial prizes to the Great Scenario Challenge and the Route Building Challenge and above all they are active and supporting on the forums. As developers go, you will be hard pushed to find one involved in the community more than this and I think it a little harsh to single out and criticise MeshTools for creating a new model and giving you the choice of purchasing it (or not) as you see fit.

If you are happy with the original 50 the choice seems simple. Don't buy the new model and enjoy using the original on the additional scenarios that will appear due to the release of the new 50. Sounds like MeshTools have once again given something for nothing. Well done Mike. Keep it up.

Jim

[bdy26]

Good post Jim.

I can see Vern's point in that steam doesn't easily give the option of a discount to existing owners, if that is what Mike wanted to do.

My take on this is that if it was an upgrade to the existing model to add lights and rain on windows that would be one thing then you'd expect that to be free or for a minimal cost that reflects the time input. This is a completely new model from the ground up, and (without being critical of the original) a huge improvement so it seems fair to pay the going rate for what that takes as with any other loco. I don't expect to get a whole new loco for free just because I spent the price of a few beers 18 months ago.

As it is on steam, it will doubtless become the 50 of choice in scenarios... and there will be 3 to chose from.

Ben

[bigvern]

Actually Jim, I wasn't particularly singling Meshtools out if you read my thread again you see I also refer to Trainz and the IOW. Going further back to MSTS days, 3DTS put a new version of the Cambrian out; now that was galling that I didn't even get an offer of a reduced price on the new version let alone a free copy - given I built the original!

I simply used Meshtools as that is the latest example. However I will while accept if the model is substantially different it may be unreasonable to expect an entirely free upgrade but why not some sort of discount as an incentive to existing owners to purchase again? It cannot be beyond the ability of the publisher and Steam to come up with some sort of discount voucher/code, mailed out to the original buyers valid only off that item and if need be for a limited time.

I don't think that is too much to ask and would indeed go a long way to upholding the goodwill between users and the payware vendors.

[nobkins]

Actually Jim, I wasn't particularly singling Meshtools out if you read my thread again you see I also refer to Trainz and the IOW. Going further back to MSTS days, 3DTS put a new version of the Cambrian out; now that was galling that I didn't even get an offer of a reduced price on the new version let alone a free copy - given I built the original!

Given that this is a thread in the TS2012 forum and having re-read your post a 2nd time I am afraid it still reads to me like you single out MeshTools as an example of a recent / ongoing case which you don't agree with. I accept that this might not be what you intended.

Meshtools I feel have already done more than enough to uphold the good will that many have for them. I don't need them to give me a free new model or a discounted new model for me to continue to think they do more than their fair share for the community.

Jim

[styckx]

Couldn't agree more with that last part Jim.

[crumplezone]

In regards to the 50, the cab, the loco bodywork, bogies, sounds, features were all new PRIOR to TS2012 being released, Mike has just added the TS2012 features recently to allow for TSX mode, either way you look at it, it is a new product, I doubt barely anything is left of the original one he released. I also don't see why people feel entitled to a discount or a goodwill gesture just because the product in question is similar to one in the past. As I noted in a post I made when all this sudden "uproar" came about the 50 going onto steam, JTs 60 and exeter route were first released on JT website, then released on steam. I as purchaser from JT website didn't expect to recieve a email with a steam code just so I could have them both easily downloadable from steam.

There is a no 50 available to the masses in a easy method, a easy method being steam, Mike feeling that his completely redone 50 was worth publishing with RS.com and also getting a 50 to alot of people who would want it without the hassle and just have it plug and play without a overzealous price tag will surely welcome it.

I think its somewhat depressing when the community as of late has nothing but gripes or negativity about anything coming out for TS2012 and yet another thread gets completely derailed from the original posters intentions, its yet again turned into another thread which brings out all the negative comments and entitlement theme posts which everyone believes they are given just because they bought a product in the past.

I'm going to make it clear and straight forward, not a single one of the developers have to anything or update any of there products, nore do they have to offer anything in return for patronage. The time spent updating and giving TS2012 gimmicks and features to the locomotive takes time away from new projects, which in turn is a money loss. They are updating out of pocket there older products, which with this economical climate very difficult to do, just to add a few new features to make people happy.

Also, no one is being forced to pay for upgrades, its a option, just like any other purchase you make in your life, e.g. just because a new model of your smartphone came out it doesn't mean you have to go purchase it. Creating a uproar, gripes, complaints and negativity when you have the CHOICE to pay for a upgrade or new product is honestly showing immaturity and lack of common sense.

I'm sorry if this hits a few nerves, but some people just need a heavy dose of reality.

[styckx]

Here is a novel idea. Those who feel entitled to a free update, break out notepad, add the lights yourself to the blueprint, and upload to ukts and contribute positively. Isn't this one of the most emphasized strong points of this sim? You can do practically anything you want to do to it practically? They're lights. It's not like he took his already rebuilt Class 50 and added GPS, MP3 Player, Ipod cradle and realtime streaming of Youtube videos on console mounted monitors.. Lights..

[nobkins]

I think its somewhat depressing when the community as of late has nothing but gripes or negativity about anything coming out for TS2012 and yet another thread gets completely derailed from the original posters intentions

Good point CrumpleZone. I have played my part in derailing this thread so let me be the first to apologise.

Lets get back on top which is to congratulate those that we feel do support the community and for those you have nothing good to say please say nothing

Companies support the community in many different ways. I am actually hard pushed to think of any companies who don't in some way. It is just that they do it in their own way. which may well not be giving free updates / models etc.

My personal thanks goes to MeshTools, DigitalTraction, JustTrains, RS.com and of course Matt Peddlesden (owner of UKTS). Without them the Great Scenario Challenge would not have received such a fantastic array of prizes and the freeware packs would be lacking some quite signifiant content.

Your support is very much appreciated.

Back on topic everyone. Give THANKS not negativity remember

Thanks

Jim

[cilldroichid]

I think its somewhat depressing when the community as of late has nothing but gripes or negativity about anything coming out for TS2012 and yet another thread gets completely derailed from the original posters intentions, its yet again turned into another thread which brings out all the negative comments and entitlement theme posts which everyone believes they are given just because they bought a product in the past.

I fail to see how this thread got completely derailed when included in the OP is this quote

others that CLAIM there product is not just updated but indeed brand new stock to be repurchased again.

This i completely agree with.

Also, no one is being forced to pay for upgrades, its a option, just like any other purchase you make in your life, e.g. just because a new model of your smartphone came out it doesn't mean you have to go purchase it. Creating a uproar, gripes, complaints and negativity when you have the CHOICE to pay for a upgrade or new product is honestly showing immaturity and lack of common sense.

[220389]

Have to also say a massive Thank you.

Also off topic, slowly figuring out the Cinematic camera

Chris