Questions for Kevin Martin

BruceB · Post by **BruceB** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 6:34 pm

Opps kevin and I posted at the same time!

selsig · Post by **selsig** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 6:43 pm

pitleyfalley wrote:Lol, Excellent, was Gowrie a Single Fairlie aswell? Or was she a Hunslet? And how similar are they to Taliesin?

Chris

Well, to be honest, Gowrie was both! A Hunslet built Single Fairlie "based" (but not really) on Moel Tryfan / Snowdon Ranger when they went to Hunslet for repair. She wasn't really all that successful, hence the disposal at the earliest opportunity.

Gowrie wasn't even slightly similar to Taliesin - Walshaerts Valve gear, no front footplating, half length side tanks - about the only commonality was that both were single Fairlies. However Moel Tryfan / Snowdon Ranger were the direct precursors to Taliesin - very similar in design but with certain differences. Taliesin was an 0-4-4 whereas the other two were 0-6-4 - this was allegedly down to the severe curvature on the FR, altough since MT allegedly ran to Blaenau frequently in later years this shouldn't have really been a problem. What it did do was to standardise with the double fairlies, important for maintainance (although the standard bogies didn't really happen until preservation, those of James Spooner and Taliesin were interchangeable, similarly those of Merddin Emrys and Livingston Thomspson) and put more adhesive weight on each driver. However Taliesin was primarily a fast passenger engine, whereas MT/SR were the mixed traffic locos of the NWNGR (Russell and Beddgellert were primarily freight locos).

MT/SR and Taliesin were all products of the Vulcan Foundry, as was James Spooner, and within their lines can be seen an evolution of sorts. James Spooner came first, and was similar in many respects to Little Wonder, certainly aesthetically, then MT/SR who showed the future shape of ME and LT off to the full (probably the earliest examples of Spooner's final ideas for the design of Fairlie locos). Taliesin followed and was a bit of a mixmash of those that came before it - the front was pure James Spooner but the back was nicked straight off the NWNGR fairlies, which explains the different widths of the bodywork fore and aft of the cab - rebuilds took both Taliesin and James Spooner closer to their descendants, Merddin Emrys and Livingston Thompson, than the NWNGR farlies.

Sorry about the waffle, but I do have a tendancy to ramble on....

John

btw Kev, a really "nice to have" would be Beddgelert if you feel up to it....

BruceB · Post by **BruceB** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 6:56 pm

James Spooner was built by Avonside in Bristol, not the Vulcan Foundary, and the reason for the similarities is that Moel Tryfan, Snowdon Ranger, James Spooner, Taliesin, Merddin Emrys & Livingston Thomson were all designed by G. P. Spooner (son of James).

Bruce

BruceB · Post by **BruceB** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 7:05 pm

The FR locos were designed/built by the following:

No.1 Princess - Designed by C. M. Holland - built by G. England & Co.
No.2 Prince - Designed by C. M. Holland - built by G. England & Co.
No.3 Mountaineer - Designed by C. M. Holland - built by G. England & Co.
No.4 Palmerston - Designed by C. M. Holland - built by G. England & Co.
No.5 Welsh Pony - Designed by C. M. Holland - built by G. England & Co.
No.6 Little Giant - Designed by C. M. Holland - built by G. England & Co.
No.7 Little Wonder - Designed by G.P. Spooner - built by G. England & Co.
No.8 James Spooner - Designed by G.P. Spooner - built by Avonside Loco Co.
No.9 Taliesin - Designed by G.P. Spooner - built by Vulcan Foundary
No.10 Merddin Emrys - Designed by G.P. Spooner - built by FR Co.
No.11 Livingston Thompon (later Taliesin) Designed by G.P. Spooner - built by FR Co.

Another note is that Livingston Thompon was infact No.3 to replace the now long gone Mountaineer.

selsig · Post by **selsig** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 7:05 pm

BruceB wrote:James Spooner was built by Avonside in Bristol, not the Vulcan Foundary, and the reason for the similarities is that Moel Tryfan, Snowdon Ranger, James Spooner, Taliesin, Merddin Emrys & Livingston Thomson were all designed by G. P. Spooner (son of James).

Bruce

Good point - I'd forgotten that! I knew about George Percy designing them tho'

However it is still evident in the design that an evolutionary process was taking place, and it is equally obvious that Taliesin was a rapid bodge design using parts of two earlier designs to great effect (wonderful loco IMHO, if a little unsure in its footing)

John

pitleyfalley · Post by **pitleyfalley** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 7:45 pm

Wow thanks! I knew a fair bit about them but never realised it was all so complex!

So what then, is the Gowrie on the WHR (Porthmadog end) that is there now? I know they have Russel, Karen, and Gowrie down there, does any one know where Karen and Gowrie came from (presumably not the original in the case of Gowrie?)

Chris

selsig · Post by **selsig** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 8:16 pm

There is but one true Welsh Highland / NWNGR loco left in existance, and that is Russell at the WHR(P). Gowrie is long gone, last I heard of it was in 1923 when it was looked at for the WHR but rejected as "it wan't that great last time we had it" or similar sentiments. Snowdon Ranger was caniballised to repair Moel Tryfan (the latter loco was a hybrid of the two by WHR days) during the NWNGR period, Moel Tryfan was scrapped in 1954 by the FR (tragic, but thats hindsight for ya!), Beddgelert was scrapped in 1906ish when it was replaced by Russell, 590 was scrapped in 1941 (IIRC) for the War Effort scrap drive (but thankfully they left most of the WHR bridges). The only other "WHR" locos as such are those which were owned by the FR but operated regularly on the WHR (Princess, Prince, Palmerston, Welsh Pony, "the Baldwin" (Moelwyn) and "the Simplex" (Mary Ann) ) and the loco that was initially resident on the WHR, then rebuilt and became resident on the FR, then returned to its builders, regauged, sent to Ireland, sent back to its builders, regauged again, sent to Mauritiaus, operated, reengined, knackered, plinthed, sold and eventually repatriated back to the FR where it resides in Maenofferen shed at Minffordd waiting for its return to active duty (after another reengineing and a bit of a major rebuild) - i.e. Kerr Stuart 4415/28 (which also holds the record as the oldest diesel railway engine built as a diesel (rather than reengined from Petrol) in the UK, if not the world)

More waffle! sigh.....

John

selsig · Post by **selsig** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 8:21 pm

Oh, and there is no Gowrie in Porthmadog. Karen is a Peckett built for use in the platinum mines of Johannesburg, Gelert is a Bagnall from the same neck of the woods and "Moel Tryfan" (tentative name as I understand it) is another Bagnall, same class as Gelert, from the same Railway. Other engines on the WHR(P) include "Beddgelert" which sadly is not a rather shapely Hunslet 0-6-4, but a rather larger Franco-Belge NG15 2-8-2 Tender locomotive No. 120 (classmates 133 and 134 live in Dinas awaiting their turn in the restoration queue)

John

BruceB · Post by **BruceB** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 8:58 pm

Hope this didn't get you too confused pitleyfalley, the WHR, the railway and its rolling stock is very complicated. Visit some websites, read some books, and you should understand it!

Bruce

pitleyfalley · Post by **pitleyfalley** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 10:01 pm

All understood, I was confusing Gelert and Gowrie! Yes I have also read a little way into the none too crystal clear legal side of things which seems somewhat complicated.

All good fun though, and it will make a nice route when it is done!

Pitley

selsig · Post by **selsig** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 10:14 pm

somewhat complicated - understatement of the century!

The WHR has been a legal battlefield since 1922, and only now, some 80 years later, does it look like it is all finally being settled!

John