East Manchester - WIP Announcement

[05hunterd]

Hi all!

Whenever I go into Manchester, I just nip-on the rickety Northern Rail 142 at Fairfield and 10mins and £1.10 later, I'm there (why get the bus?). Having downloaded the wonderful Class 142, I decided that I needed something to use it with.

All this has set my sights on creating routes about a station which, to my surprise, was not modelled in RailWorks - Manchester Piccadilly. It's going to be a cumulative project - I'm starting now by creating the Piccadilly to Rose Hill Marple route ('my' train), and gradually expanding it route by route and branch by branch in future releases. For simplicity, I plan to keep it as generic/'vanilla' as possible (for convenience), but 3rd party objects that I may include will be used for enhanced realism. It was going to be a personal thing...but where's the community spirit in that?

I am, however, extremely inexperienced regarding RailWorks modifications, in particular the modelling-side of things (another reason for 'default-object-ness') - so any help would be immensely appreciated! As it stands, I have used RWDecal and the UK DEM data to produce the route graphically (I plan to leave the decals enabled for photo-reality...comments on this?) so that objects are in their precise locations (started at 1600 yesterday...finished at 0300 this morning )

The main obstacles I am thinking about as I type:
a) Getting a 'cab-view' video (or similar) for placement of signs and lights etc. (gantries are clearly visible on the Google Earth images)
//b) Basic re-skinning of the default station signs (I can get macro-photos of the actual signs for colour and text etc.)\\
c) Permission to include custom objects with the package (nothing bugs me more than downloading something only to find one needs 20-or-so other objects to be downloaded) - all credits due and accounted for (including assistance in this post!)

Before I proceed much further, I'm interested in the community response (whether or not it will be viable to spend time creating - it will of course be and remain forever freeware!)

Many thanks, all!

Regards,
David

[bdy26]

Sounds interesting David - I know that route well, though I think that must be the first time a 142 has been inspiration for anything other than a need to go and find a proper train *

* not knocking the model at all, just the prototype

For a cabview, hunt around youtube, video125, amazon and the usual sources. Network rail may publish speed limits somewhere - there are posts about many of these issues if you're prepared to dive into the search engine.

In terms of assets, your best bet may be to look at the UK Freeware pack forum, as there should be assets packs coming out in the not too distant future which you can use on that basis. If you ask nicely, in my experience asset makers are invariably generous in allowing you to distribute their work - the difficulty is remebering what you've used. Darpor has just released some warehouses and signal boxes that you might find useful, and Chaddock Engineering are working on some gantries that would suit your route.

Personally I'd delete the decals - they don't look right even at high resolution, and you often get Z-fighting (flickering) as they merge with the DEM terrain - but entirely your call.

Good luck, and keep us posted

B

[Darpor]

Decals cannot be left in the route anyway, its against Google Earth policy and is stated in the RWDecal licence.

[05hunterd]

Hi B,

Cheers for the reply...and I can see where you're coming from inspiration-wise

I might even ask about a cab-view video...no harm in poking around to see if I can get in the cab from MAN-RSH and back...probably no but worth a shot I think...if not I'll do my best with my camera and sitting in as good-a position as I can get...and as far as I have seen the publications are relatively classified - need a Network Rail account :-/

I've got as many assets as I can and many say they're free to be used anyway - I'm going to keep a tally and write the Readme file with credits etc. as I go along and of course ask permission from everyone else.

I can understand about the decals too - I've noticed some flickering going on so I'll take your advice there. Track laying is now a pain in the backside though - wont hug the terrain even with terrain-hugging enabled

NOTICE: The initial [very early and very rough] plan for final release is to use these bounds, clockwise from Northern-most station:

Rochdale - Greenfield - Hadfield - Glossop - New Mills Central - New Mills Newtown - Disley - Macclesfield - Alderley Edge - Knutsford - Warrington Central - Earlestown - Wigan Wallgate - Lostock - Bolton - Bury

[05hunterd]

Decals cannot be left in the route anyway, its against Google Earth policy and is stated in the RWDecal licence.

Hi Darpor,

Understood

They're not of a particularly good resolution anyway

David

[Darpor]

Decals cannot be left in the route anyway, its against Google Earth policy and is stated in the RWDecal licence.

Hi Darpor,

Understood

They're not of a particularly good resolution anyway

David

Hi David

Yes, they wouldn't be much use really along with the fact they are quite large on the file size side. It would just mean a much larger download for the end user. Time to get terrain painting I guess.

[bdy26]

Ah laying track...

Don't lay track with "snap to terrain" (magnet on the left) enabled, as your route will have the riding characteristics of the Indiana Jones mine ride! Not a good combo with a 142 The way to do it is to lay the track and form the terrain around it.

What you need to do is start at a known point of known height (use the contours on an OS map, or see the same on bing maps). Then take your gradient diagram (an absolute essential) and preset your track to the gradient - make sure the snap to terrain is off as it overrides the gradient. If you're going downhill add a minus sign to the gradient. Then lay the track following the route along the decal.

If you go underground, in the terrain forming tools use the magnet around your track and it will form a cutting, though it will be rough and you will need to fine tune by raising and lowering specific points of the terrain (pyramid symbol, set brush to 10 or less). As its difficult to lay track where you can't see it, lay short sections at a time, and form the cutting, then delete the track and relay - this time you can see it so you should be able to lay it smoothly, then form the cutting properly second time. If you are floating in mid air, the magnet tool will form a rough embankment.

Hope that helps - its not in the tutorials!

Just a psycological tip (and route building is 50% psychology!) - don't set your sights too high to start with. Do your route small sections at a time to break up the monotony of doing scenery.

Cheers

Ben

[05hunterd]

Don't lay track with "snap to terrain" (magnet on the left) enabled, as your route will have the riding characteristics of the Indiana Jones mine ride! Not a good combo with a 142 The way to do it is to lay the track and form the terrain around it.

I wondered why - shame because StT would be extremely useful if it had more resolution

What you need to do is start at a known point of known height (use the contours on an OS map, or see the same on bing maps). Then take your gradient diagram (an absolute essential) and preset your track to the gradient - make sure the snap to terrain is off as it overrides the gradient. If you're going downhill add a minus sign to the gradient. Then lay the track following the route along the decal. If you go underground, in the terrain forming tools use the magnet around your track and it will form a cutting, though it will be rough and you will need to fine tune by raising and lowering specific points of the terrain (pyramid symbol, set brush to 10 or less). As its difficult to lay track where you can't see it, lay short sections at a time, and form the cutting, then delete the track and relay - this time you can see it so you should be able to lay it smoothly, then form the cutting properly second time. If you are floating in mid air, the magnet tool will form a rough embankment.

Ah - gradient maps...no clue there . However, I am looking into making the gradients in the already-present terrain a little more gradual (manually with flatten and height tools etc.) for just the railway line itself. It is of course fine nearer the City but out towards the peaks it a trifle...bumpful

Many thanks for the advice as well, certainly going to come in useful

Cheers,
David

[05hunterd]

Yes, they wouldn't be much use really along with the fact they are quite large on the file size side. It would just mean a much larger download for the end user. Time to get terrain painting I guess.

Yeah - well right now I'm using it more as a paint template - painting over the decals now so all the fields etc are correct...it's a lengthy process though

David

[Darpor]

It certainly is!

[Phil160]

Dave

I would also start with the gradients, then bring the terrain up around the track. Most of the lines in east Manchester have a ruling gradient of 1-150 or steeper, (Piccadilly starts at 1-376 and rises to 1-176 at Ardwick and is at 1-100 by the time you hit gorton) so some of the inner city areas are just as steep as the peaks.

Just remember this rule, if you miss-lay 100m of track at 1-100 your track height will be out by a meter and that's can make a big difference. Also the Dem terrain isn't perfect, and can have a big difference as well. I'm working on a 50's Manchester to Hayfield route via Reddish and Romiley, i could spend hours telling you of the problems I've run into and is a very big project in its own right despite the fact that its just short of 14 miles.

If you need any help with these area I'd be happy to assist, but IMO it is one very difficult area to model. Good luck with it, many times I've thought of giving up on the 50's route and doing a modern version, but the thought of kettles slogging up those hills has kept me going.

kind regards Phil t

[05hunterd]

Dave

I would also start with the gradients, then bring the terrain up around the track. Most of the lines in east Manchester have a ruling gradient of 1-150 or steeper, (Piccadilly starts at 1-376 and rises to 1-176 at Ardwick and is at 1-100 by the time you hit gorton) so some of the inner city areas are just as steep as the peaks.

Just remember this rule, if you miss-lay 100m of track at 1-100 your track height will be out by a meter and that's can make a big difference. Also the Dem terrain isn't perfect, and can have a big difference as well. I'm working on a 50's Manchester to Hayfield route via Reddish and Romiley, i could spend hours telling you of the problems I've run into and is a very big project in its own right despite the fact that its just short of 14 miles.

If you need any help with these area I'd be happy to assist, but IMO it is one very difficult area to model. Good luck with it, many times I've thought of giving up on the 50's route and doing a modern version, but the thought of kettles slogging up those hills has kept me going.

kind regards Phil t

Hi Phil,

The problem there is that I have no idea where to start with that. I'm used to the like of aviation charts where everything is laid out - an aerial plan view of 2011 UK lines with their respective gradients and spot-heights for sections marked upon it would be magic. But aside from that - I have spent the past 2 hours looking for such things to no avail, the only resource from NR being classified to railway operators only. The whole thing is stumping me really, but this the most - and I can agree, it's proving very difficult to model.

BTW: I'm having an issue with converging two parallel lines - after following numerous tutorials it's just not working. I have two bits of track which need to converge at J, like below:

------------------------------------------------------------------J------------------

Cheers,
David

[05hunterd]

UPDATE - DAY 1

- Re-aligned decals for better location with terrain
- Started laying track, starting from RSH
- Started to paint terrain
- Started to place significant objects (bridges etc.)

[TractorBasher]

The creative talents of the RailWorks community edge ever closer to building my "home" route, the stub of the former Woodhead Route (closed 30 years ago this week) between Hadfield/Glossop and Manchester. I will be following with interest and hope I can be of use helping to gather reference material, particularly around the Guide Bridge area as I work at a factory overlooking the station and yard.

To get you started on your quest for cabrides, check out this video on YouTube. It's filmed from the rear cab of a 323 between Piccadilly and Guide Bridge. Other videos from the same user cover much of the rest of the line.

[Phil160]

hi Dave
for your search try the woodhead site for photos track plans. it was closed today as a mark of respect for the anniversary of its closure.
this came from a search for woodley junction signal box diagram http://www.lymmobservatory.net/railways ... agrams.htm this has a gradient profile on it plus a few other interesting bits for those considering building the woodhead line.
regards phil t