LNER 4472 Flying Scotsman: The return

[lateagain]

As someone who loves ALL trains I did grow up in the transition era, and in Ilford on the Eastren Region that was perhaps more obvious than anywhere with 1500v DC electrics operationg alongside early diesels and old LNER steam and BR standards. The more stuff that can be preserved the better and the attraction of larger "prestige" loco's is obvious but I sometimes doubt that the amount of money that's been thrown at the Flying Scotsman couldn't have better spent on more intersting and noteable traction? Where are the B1's for instance? The LNER J class freight loco's? (only pick them as they too are LNER designs)

I saw FS in bits on my only visit to the NRM a few years back and to see it back together looking ex-works is a very impressive sight but reading that it'll soon be resprayed into that ghastly green again makes me despair

I'm with Ian. Too many preserved loco's look more like ornaments than what they actually were. They were mucky, dirty hard working machines that had to earn their keep. By the post war period the ability to recruit men to do what most of us would now do for nothing in working on dirty, open cabbed locomotives was becoming harder and harder. Reading memoirs of drivers you find that some sheds took more time to clean loco's than others. Some were notorious for leaving loco's downright filthy. By the end of steam on Southern the wonderful pacifics that have not only been preserved but run on a good few preserved railways today looked more like they'd been pictured on the Barry scrap lines rather than just about to haul a scheduled service.

Of course exhibiting a loco in this state would be like trying to "reskin and weather" a real loco as we do virtual ones and would be far more difficult to pull off that all these shiny ornaments that fill the halls of the NRM at the moment.

What grabs me straight away about the current livery is that it's not only a unique (?) example of the war time livery but that it's semi matt black does a fantastic job of displaying the lines of the locomotive. The picture link above is so impressive that IMHO to paint that into a shiny polished green would be an insult to the efforts of those who've worked to get it to it's current state. .....so that'll happen then won't it!!! Apart from anything it would be a great tribute to the railway men and women who worked in appalling conditions and considerable added danger during the war years. It's taken my lifetime to get a memorial for bomber command crews so I suppose that doesn'y count for much nowadays .

Geoff

[lateagain]

Duplicate post ....site running slow.

[bharrison]

I Like the wartime black It suits the loco. If I could have my colour on it LNER apple green without the rotten smoke defflecters or BR green like tornado.

[Rfairlie]

This idea that locos were always dirty is very much a post WW2 thing, when the money and labour required to keep locos clean became harder to come by. Before the war prestige locos like an A3 would have been kept reasonably clean and probably pristine if working the big name expresses. There is plenty of photo evidence to back this up.

Photos from the pre-grouping era seems to show that most passenger locos were polished regularly, with the high level of competition from other railways image a clean image was important.

For some reason enthusiasts like to obsess over recreating the last depressing years of BR steam rather than the golden age.

Tim

[lateagain]

Hi Tim,
Well I don't quarrel with the fact that the prestige expresses were kept smart as part of the constant rivalry between LMS and LNER but if you look at the Flying Scotsman's service history it was only LNER green for the first 16-17 years and then black for the 5 war years and then we were into the post war era for it's last 18 years. Not sure when it lost the black but early BR markings were just the words BRITISH RAILWAYS in white on the black tender so many must have lasted in wartime black well after 1945?

Cost cutting isn't new. The pressure was on the railways on staffing costs anyway and the war and the damage that that caused to the system meant that "efficiencies" (that always makes me fume ...as it's usually used by folk who's inefficiency has made them necessary in the first place...) meant it was a downward spiral for staffing and maintenance. Even then different sheds on the LNER had different attitudes to "Bull" according to accounts I've read.

I think the the thing about many enthusiasts is that we are more impressed by seeing steam operate than worrying about whether it's polished or not. Personally it's the transition era that's most interesting but of course many love the eras before even the big 5

Geoff

[dorlan]

You either love or hate her, but the iconic LNER A3 4-6-2 Pacific 4472 Flying Scotsman is back, after it's rather lengthy and expensive overhaul.<snip>

Flying Scotsman's return delayed by cracks!

[kieranhardy]

Which no doubt means the return of B12 No. 8572 which i find far more interesting than 4472 has been put back further.

[lateagain]

Which no doubt means the return of B12 No. 8572 which i find far more interesting than 4472 has been put back further.

Quite agree Kieran. Thought that was being restored at the NNR though? Their N7 is one of the more interesting LNER designs still running IMO. But then I am biased because it ran through Ilford where I grew up but was long since replaced by the 1500V DC electrics by my childhood.

Somewhere I've got a picture of the chassis taken at the NRM when they had the whole deal in a kit of parts. I'll post it if I can find it.

geoff

[kieranhardy]

Which no doubt means the return of B12 No. 8572 which i find far more interesting than 4472 has been put back further.

Quite agree Kieran. Thought that was being restored at the NNR though? Their N7 is one of the more interesting LNER designs still running IMO.

NNR did the tender but Ian Riley is doing the loco itself, 4472 is the reason the B12 hasn't steamed sooner. The NNR hope to have her running for the September gala but highly unlikely now with 4472 yet again hogging the work force. Sorry but in my eyes the B12 is far more unique than 4472.

The N7 is also not owned by the NNR, it is owned by the East Anglian Railway Museum. She was on long term loan to the NNR as they completed the overhaul. She is now back at Chappel and Wakes Colne and should be leaving to visit another railway shortly. 69621 is infact a GER design although she was built for the LNER, she is my favourite eastern region tank with the GER J15 being my favourite tender loco.

[TheAmateurBasher]

To fill the gap left by 4472's prolonged absence, the NRM is bringing fellow LNER legend, A4 4468 Mallard, back to York for the summer.

Details: http://www.nrm.org.uk/NRM/PlanaVisit/Ev ... llard/main

[bharrison]

NNR did the tender but Ian Riley is doing the loco itself, 4472 is the reason the B12 hasn't steamed sooner. The NNR hope to have her running for the September gala but highly unlikely now with 4472 yet again hogging the work force. Sorry but in my eyes the B12 is far more unique than 4472.

Kieran

I've never seen a real B12 run and I have to admit that I would like to I do like 4472 but It seems to hogging the work force abit and it would be nice to see a different LNER design loco in traffic. I have see the NNR's J15 as the nymr loaned a while back for shuttle trains. Eastern tanks for me the N2 with the N7 a close second

[alexnick]

The main hall in the NRM sounds quite interesting at the moment, with NBR Maude visiting from Bo'Ness, and also I saw that King George V has been visiting.

It would surprise me however if 4472 spends a lot of time on display in museums. It's always been thought of as a railtour locomotive, where I expect it will be extremely popular both on the mainline and on heritage railways.

Unfortunately the NRM locos which I really want to see in action are unlikely to ever be restored to working order: Gladstone; Lode Star; the MR compound; the original Ffestiniog double fairlie; the Oerlikon NLL EMU; the NER 2-4-0. But I imagine they're all too fragile to restore.

What I will say is that the NRM does a good job of getting its exhibits out and about, both by visiting other museums, and by loaning working locos to heritage lines - I'm always happy when I see E850 steamed on the Mid-Hants. I think this is a balanced and flexible approach taken by the NRM, for which they deserve much credit.

AN

[kieranhardy]

To fill the gap left by 4472's prolonged absence, the NRM is bringing fellow LNER legend, A4 4468 Mallard, back to York for the summer.

Details: http://www.nrm.org.uk/NRM/PlanaVisit/Ev ... llard/main

But she was supposed to be going to Germany this month.

[ashgray]

I don't think much of this new steam engine though. It doesn't have a taper boiler, belpair (sic) firebox, or a copper-cap chimney. Nor is it Brunswick Green. AN

I wouldn't feel too bad about it - at least two of the new build kettles currently being worked on have all of those iconic features.

Ash

[MuzTrem]

But she was supposed to be going to Germany this month.

According to rumor this has been postponed until December, doubtless this will either be confirmed or denied soon.

And I don't care what anybody else says, I'll always believe that 4472 is worthy of restoration despite the expense - and yes, I donated to the overhaul so I've put my money where my mouth is

Not sure when it lost the black but early BR markings were just the words BRITISH RAILWAYS in white on the black tender so many must have lasted in wartime black well after 1945?

For the record, Scotsman was repainted apple green when rebuilt as an A3, returning to traffic in January 1947. She retained apple green with BRITISH RAILWAYS markings until December 1949, when she was repainted BR blue. She was renumbered E103 in March 1948 and 60103 in December 1948. AFAIK no A3s retained wartime black into BR days.