Class 57/0 Update Discussion

[Kariban]

The way I see it is the same as your car

Although a car has far smaller and lighter pistons than a heavy locomotive. This is why things like motorbikes / chainsaws / small engine(s) can rev into the thousands, whereas car engines generally rev into the hundreds.

Whilst I'm not a train driver, I'm an ex bus driver and the older vehicles without turbos fitted quite often had around a quarter to half second delay to start revving up due to the reasonably heavy pistons fitted. (MCW Metrobus, Leyland Titans, which use a 'fluid based flywheel'* ) *I'm no mechanic, but I think thats what my instructor said years ago when I was training.

Yeah, that's why I mentioned the old EE lumps; also for turbo engines it takes a while to spin the turbo up ( 80s turbo cars had 1-2s of delay on this even ) and open throttle with not enough air is not going to do wonders for fuel mixtures.

RE: 66 brakes, the 60 has what you're talking about; indeed every vacuum braked loco has what you're talking about maybe ask JustTrains for an overhaul? iirc they were redoing the Voyager.

[Wikkus]

maybe ask JustTrains for an overhaul? iirc they were redoing the Voyager.

Is it JT's to fix, i.e. did they develop it? I thought it was an in-house RSC creation?

Rik.

[Kariban]

maybe ask JustTrains for an overhaul? iirc they were redoing the Voyager.

Is it JT's to fix, i.e. did they develop it? I thought it was an in-house RSC creation?

Rik.

Right, not JT who just sell it, it's RSDL. Who fixes those?

[Wikkus]

I think that video above highlights my point. If you watch it you will hear the engine rev up then there is a 5 second delay before the loco starts to move. Can you see the difference? The engine is revving up but nothing is seemingly happening for 5 seconds as the inertia and friction is overcome. I think some people are confusing this with pulling the power handle and then nothing happening at all to the engine for 5 seconds when in fact the engine is revving away but no motion has yet commenced.

I was under the (possibly mistaken) impression that the power handle was connected not directly to the engine, but either electro-mechanically/electro-hydraulically? And therefore, engine characteristics aside, e.g. slow revving, long stroke units vs short stroke, higher revving units, there would be an inherent delay in the revs picking up due to the "engine management" deciphering the command call and the fuel rack being set accordingly to deliver more/less fuel, something that would be more prevalent in earlier, pre-solid-state units?

Rik.

[Wikkus]

Right, not JT who just sell it, it's RSDL. Who fixes those?

Technically, I would suspect RSC, although, it may not be covered as it's a stand-alone "legacy" product. Would need one of the team's input on that one.

Rik.

[USRailFan]

maybe ask JustTrains for an overhaul? iirc they were redoing the Voyager.

Is it JT's to fix, i.e. did they develop it? I thought it was an in-house RSC creation?

Uh, no? RSC had nothing to do with the Voyager, if so they'd sell it through Steam, not through JT. The Voyager was developed by Railwaves, IIRC.

[Kariban]

maybe ask JustTrains for an overhaul? iirc they were redoing the Voyager.

Is it JT's to fix, i.e. did they develop it? I thought it was an in-house RSC creation?

Uh, no? RSC had nothing to do with the Voyager, if so they'd sell it through Steam, not through JT. The Voyager was developed by Railwaves, IIRC.

Yers, this was about the 66 ( and thoroughly off topic ).

[Wikkus]

maybe ask JustTrains for an overhaul? iirc they were redoing the Voyager.

Is it JT's to fix, i.e. did they develop it? I thought it was an in-house RSC creation?

Uh, no? RSC had nothing to do with the Voyager, if so they'd sell it through Steam, not through JT. The Voyager was developed by Railwaves, IIRC.

As has been mentioned (now that we're waaay off-topic), my reply was in response to the suggestion that JT were redoing the 66 as they were also alleged to be redoing the Voyager, the OP (with respect to the 66) having, presumably, bought their 66 from JT and assuming it was a JT product.

Phew!

Rik.

[MisterWho]

Quite apart from the degree to which this has gone off-topic, I find the situation on the Class 57 very confusing. It's available through Steam and it's available from Oovee - both currently at discounted prices. The question is, are these two versions the same ?

I recently bought the RSC megapack from Steam so have the latest version from there. The Oovee website implies that all their products are the same as those available through Steam. Yet there have been posts and topics here which suggest that the version available directly from Oovee is not the same as that from Steam, and the Oovee website suggests the same as their 57 is now labelled "new".

Please can someone confirm whether the two versions are indeed the same or not ...
thanks in advance,
moi

[Ooveecouk]

Quite apart from the degree to which this has gone off-topic, I find the situation on the Class 57 very confusing. It's available through Steam and it's available from Oovee - both currently at discounted prices. The question is, are these two versions the same ?

I recently bought the RSC megapack from Steam so have the latest version from there. The Oovee website implies that all their products are the same as those available through Steam. Yet there have been posts and topics here which suggest that the version available directly from Oovee is not the same as that from Steam, and the Oovee website suggests the same as their 57 is now labelled "new".

Please can someone confirm whether the two versions are indeed the same or not ...
thanks in advance,
moi

Hello,

There is currently only one version of the Class 57 available that Oovee has developed. We have a store page on our website which provides you with all the information, screenshots, reviews and videos - if you wish to buy when clicking the "purchase" button you are directed to our publisher which is RSC/Steam. From that point you can purchase the product. The purchase button simply links you to the Steam store page for the same product.

Many people above are inquiring about the different version of the Class 57 which will become available at some point in the future (Class 57/6 & /3). This thread however is aimed towards the discussion of the update that will be automatically installed to the Class 57/0 customers.

Hope this helps.

[Ooveecouk]

Of course an engine will take time to spool up to higher revs but from my experience there isn't a period where nothing happens at all. Overcoming inertia and friction will slow an engine from being able to increase in power but it won't stop it from revving up, unless of course it stalls due to too much load. The way I see it is the same as your car, you hit the gas the engine will instantly respond. Doesn't mean you'll get instant power and speed but the engine will instantly go to full power setting to try and get you there. The transmission side of things is where the engine meets resistance, by transmission I mean motors, gearing, wheels etc. Unless it is specifically designed that way there is no way a throttle input will do nothing to the engine for 5 seconds, the delay is in power transmission and overcoming inertia. Can you imagine that in your car if there was a 5 second delay every time you moved your foot? You would be spending a lot of time crashed!!

I have no backup for this but from my personal view I think the delay is there maybe due to the initial overcome of inertia or as you say it has been purposely designed to insure the driver has selected the desired notch before the engine begins to rotate. I presume it could damage or disrupt the flow of the engine if the driver selected a notch then suddenly changed his mind.. - something which I do a lot in RailWorks.

IIRC the Class 156 has a delay but only when going into notch 4 from N for some reason...

Cheers, Z

[pacerpilot]

The way I see it is the same as your car, you hit the gas the engine will instantly respond. Doesn't mean you'll get instant power and speed but the engine will instantly go to full power setting to try and get you there. The transmission side of things is where the engine meets resistance, by transmission I mean motors, gearing, wheels etc. Unless it is specifically designed that way there is no way a throttle input will do nothing to the engine for 5 seconds, the delay is in power transmission and overcoming inertia. Can you imagine that in your car if there was a 5 second delay every time you moved your foot? You would be spending a lot of time crashed!!

But its not a car..its a locomotive. Can you imagine cars took the same distance to reduce speed as a locomotive? You cannot compare the two. The power controllers are not directly connected to the engine. Be it locomotive or DMU, they dont operate in the same way as a car with a direct throttle cable attached to a throttle body.
Glyn, an experienced loco driver, has confirmed the throttle delay exists on all UK locos. I've spent plenty of time on the footplate as shunter on 37's,47s,50s,60s 66, and 67 and all operate in a similar manner.
Even the class 175s I drive today still have a long pause before power is translated from Combined Power/Brake controller into any sort of reaction from the engine. From Moving the brake handle from High through neutral into notch 2, takes around 3 seconds for the brakes to release and only then will the engines have started spooling.

[MisterWho]

... The purchase button simply links you to the Steam store page for the same product. ... Hope this helps.

Yes, indeed. Thanks very much for the prompt reply,
moi

[phill70]

But its not a car..its a locomotive. Can you imagine cars took the same distance to reduce speed as a locomotive? You cannot compare the two. The power controllers are not directly connected to the engine. Be it locomotive or DMU, they dont operate in the same way as a car with a direct throttle cable attached to a throttle body.
Glyn, an experienced loco driver, has confirmed the throttle delay exists on all UK locos. I've spent plenty of time on the footplate as shunter on 37's,47s,50s,60s 66, and 67 and all operate in a similar manner.
Even the class 175s I drive today still have a long pause before power is translated from Combined Power/Brake controller into any sort of reaction from the engine. From Moving the brake handle from High through neutral into notch 2, takes around 3 seconds for the brakes to release and only then will the engines have started spooling.

Thanks for confirming that

One thing that amazes me around here sometimes, is that you try to pass on some info from the horses mouth, and some people don't believe its true
Don't know why I bother sometimes.

Glyn

[pacerpilot]

Thanks for confirming that

One thing that amazes me around here sometimes, is that you try to pass on some info from the horses mouth, and some people don't believe its true
Don't know why I bother sometimes.

Glyn

I wont mention the headlamps then