Suggestion re Assets

[Darpor]

Sounds pretty good to me Jim.

It is not that I am against a dvd being available, even more so when Chris above has pointed out that it would be handy for those with poor internet connections. I just don't see it as a solution to the asset problem. We have seen it a few times now, where "new" members have been slightly confused with the system we currently have for Railworks. Imagine in the future, a new member asking in the forum about where they can find the assets for a "free" route, only to be told that the best solution is to pay for something, whether at a very small fee or not.

Edit

I agree Keith, but at the same time, if in the future, a new route needs 240 assets from UKTS, isn't it better to have a much easier option of one download and one install? I certainly don't want 240 items listed in my Package Manager.

[Basherz]

Which comes back to the "Route Builder" - he obviously has the item(s), so the easiest thing for him to do is pack everything into one downloadable .rpw.

[nobkins]

I don't think it is too much bother it is just about simplifying the process as much as possible. I can remember my early days with MSTS and getting very frustrated with routes that did not work. I am certain this was due to me making mistakes with downloads that each had there own custom installation method but I got the most enjoyment from the community CD's are these were simple and contained everything you needed.

I would put the effort in for a route I wanted but you can broaden your audiance by simplifying the process.

[keithmross]

I agree Keith, but at the same time, if in the future, a new route needs 240 assets from UKTS, isn't it better to have a much easier option of one download and one install? I certainly don't want 240 items listed in my Package Manager.

I appreciate that too, but it will be a never ending problem as (hopefully) the file libraries expand with new content. I'm sure we don't want to end up with a subscription service where we eagerly await an updated DVD to be posted out every month

There aint no easy answer chaps

Edit

Yes Basherz that would be simple - for the end user...

I know - let's just stick with core content. (stir!)

[nobkins]

To some extent route builders who wish to make sure there route is simple for downloaded need to make sure that before they commit to using an asset they have permission to re-distribute it.

The GPL check box on UKTS uploads will speed that process up (for UKTS assets). Downloads from other sites will require the route builder to seek permission.

[GavNormandale]

I think the UKTS downlaod library is excellent. It is already searchable and is a database so I don't think another alternative should be set up. For those that don't like paying the premium memerbership I think they need to think carefully about the amount of time and effort Matt and his family put in to running UKTS and the significant benefit to our train sim community.

UKTS provides a centralised searchable database that can be accessed as much as you like for a year for around £20. A bargain I think.

If UKTS did not exist then users would have to go to many different sites to download all the assets which would be much worse than the present system.

hi, the idea of a data base isn't to supply the stock, its to help locate stock, there are other sites that hold content besides UKTS, an independent database that lists stock for all known sites would be needed and not just free-ware, pay-ware could be listed also, just links to the content would be needed.

cheers

Gav

[nobkins]

Ahh i see what you are driving at. I think the issue there is that it would be a big task to maintain.

I still think it primarily falls on the route developer to obtain permission for all assets to allow them to repackage them before comitting to use them. If permission can not be obtained the route author has to decide whether or not to use the asset and provide a link to where it can be downloaded or if to use something else instead.

If we can simplyfy the process of obtaining permission then the process gets a lot quicker. If UKTS can add the GPL option to asset uploads (or something else that does the job) then other forums can do this as well. If users ask for it then forum owners will probably try to oblige.

This is always going to be difficult to achieve perfectly.

[bigvern]

I don't think the DVD is a particularly good idea, to be honest, as it's immediately out of date and only good for UKTS hosted items - not the other stuff scattered round the world.

Some sort of self checking central file repository is still the way to go. Now whether RS.com should be in the lead on this is open to debate - in the end it is their file structure, admittedly inherited from Kuju, that is to some extent causing this problem. With MSTS there was no choice but to zip up the required objects as each route sat in its own folder. Yes, there was duplication even of default items but we didn't have this mess.

I think it somehow comes back to the very beginning of RS when, from what I can gather, EA wanted to 1. Keep much tighter control of content distribution - bring it "in house" in effect and 2. Thought most of the add-ons were going to come from the payware side of things with freeware/hobby developers very much an afterthought and that people buying a route etc. would be getting a complete package from the particular developer. I bet the last thing they considered was what happens if Joe Bungle creates a freeware route in his spare time and has assets from 30 different developers in it.

Of course "1" never happened. EA (and Kuju) rapidly lost interest after release and once they realised there was not going to be a rush of payware routes in the first 12 months. So now is RS.com's turn to shine. In some respects, they already have a distribution system in place - it's called STEAM (excuse caps). Surely there must be a precedent with other games for having approved add-ons and assets that are actually free of charge? Even if a small subscription was required (one reason Auran started the DLS was to keep a steady trickle of revenue coming in) all the elements are in place including presumably checking if you have the required assets on your computer already.

Not good news for Mattie and his site if this were to happen I know, but we are talking practical solutions here and Steam, or an offshoot, seems to fit the bill. It would also serve to get even the freeware a much wider audience than it perhaps receives at the moment.

[dipper6]

Seems from the replies that the DVD is not the ideal solution, thats OK, but the thoughts of the route \ scenario writer including
the assets is the best way gets my vote. after all, he has got the files so its easy to pack them in a zip or rwp or whatever for Steam.

I know of 2 routes (one of them a big one) who is doing just that, in fact I've just downloaded the latest versions with 6 files of
only the assets of .rwp for one of the routes.
These are their sizes and they are not finished as there will be more 'cos the route is not yet finished. These are the the exact sizes of the files.

Assets 1 40,976,824
Assets 2 71,144,986
Assets 3 102,277,586
Assets 4 104,082,439
Assets 5 14,618,162
Assets 6 61,907,334

Would you want to download that lot file by file - I bet not. Think on it.
Routes are gradually getting larger and so there will be more of this. I can tell you this that it is one cracker of a route

[Basherz]

You've chosen a small one then IanW, the Ligne Paris Maubeuge RC1 was in excess of 800Mb!! (and I still never got the damned thing working!!)

[Easilyconfused]

Matt has already indicated that if the permissions can be sorted out then UKTS are more than happy to distribute routes on DVD in a similar manner to MSTS ones i.e. you pay essentially the production cost of the CD and postage and get a month premium access in case you want to download any more related scenarios / engines etc. that never made the DVD cut.

The idea of bundling the entire asset library onto DVD is really a non-starter.

[gopher]

I'm not very keen on a centralised depository system. If the site ever went down for good we would really be in a mire.

Gordon

[mikesimpson]

Thanks for all of the comments, but I still do not see some of the reasoning behind some of the suggestions

1. Suggestion - Each route author be allowed to add all of the assets he uses to his .rwp file - This is fine, but say a route includes 20 mbytes of freeware assets which you already have, you are going to have to download these once again and you do not need them. This is a huge hit on the library's bandwidth.

2. Suggestion - Set up a Trainz like central repository of assets - Who is ever likely to do this on a server with the necessary bandwidth?

3. Someone said that the DVD was OK, but everything would need to be installed separately. Not really true, a DVD could be set up with each Author's assets in a folder with his name, i.e. a straight copy of the RailWorks Assets folder. Then it would just be a case of copying the required folders from the DVD into the RailWorks\Assets folder (user could select overwrite or not overwrite for pre-existing files).

As for those who would not spend a few quid for the convenience of having such a DVD - words fail me, in some cases the authors of Assets have spent literally thousands of pounds on software such as 3D-Max just so that they can provide you with the content you think you are entitled to for nothing. Freeware is only free to the user, it is not free to the authors.

Mike

[AndiS]

Let me just say that this community DVD is an excellent idea. It would have two great effects:

a) It will draw a clear line between things which are really meant to be included on other routes and things which someone wants to show but is reluctant to really donate to other freeware projects. I think that route builders need a bag of items where they do not need to worry about permissions. As long as they pick, it from this one DVD, they need not contact anybody and they save loads of book-keeping and correspondence.

b) Since this one DVD is so handy, route builders will think trice before including assets from somewhere else, or newer versions. Of course, there will always be a set of indispensable custom assets. They are not the problem. The problem would only arise if there were many similar things. I don't think that this will be a problem. As long as everyone sticks with the Provider/Product idea -- at least to the extent of not publishing under other names -- then all is fine.

Just in case I produce some cow, and later I produce a new version of the same cow and I want it to replace the old one, then I name it just the same, same folder under AndiS and everyone who downloads it after installing the community DVD will overwrite the older one. If the new cow is a different one, I name it cow2 and the problem is solved, too.

If Matt calls it "Community Disk 2010", with the perspective of having another one in 2011, then everyone knows where he stands.
Route builders using the 2010 disk in 2012 know that they are a bit behind.
Modellers creating a new version know that they can include it in the next sequel and have it automatically spread everywhere.
Consumers know that if they install the 2011 disk first and copy the content of the 2010 disk over that, that they did something wrong.

Call me crazy for my perspective, but in 2014, all you would have to do after some reinstall would be to put in disk 2010, 2011 ... 2014, and then install all the route, hopefully from DVD (backup medium), too. Anyone can do that.

Btw., I would not exclude routes per se from the list. If they fit on it, the more the merrier.

And in case there is some space left, maybe some international stuff can be invited, too? Having all your rolling stock on that DVD will seriously increase the chance that they are used in scenarios, and having your scenery items on the disk will make them appear on routes which get published, not only on those which never make it to release.

[Trainguy76]

Going along with AndiS' idea, the DVD creator in the years after the first one, would need to create sub-folders to state "included in DVD 2010" or whichever years previous. To avoid installing the same assets twice.