Getting signals to show correct aspect

[PFunk]

I'm novice to route building and all that and have been slowly developing my understanding of how the systems work and their limitations with respect to reality. I've just run into a basic problem that I am almost resigned to thinking is impossible to fix despite it being a relatively simple layout. I of course understand that the signal aspects displayed bear no relation to what the AI dispatcher is doing so I'm just trying to figure out if its possible to make signals in the layout I'm experimenting with display the right aspect to the player without needing to tab.

Obviously I could go into details about what I'm doing with signals to create this layout, answer basic questions about whether I'm covering my bases doing things right, not doing basic errors etc etc. To save time I'd rather present the scenario and see if people agree it ought to be one that would be workable or whether it presents fundamental issues that can't be overcome.

Pictures show the layout from the Platform perspective, there being 2 platforms that are at the end of an up/down unidirectional Mainline. The situation is the far train is inbound to the vacant platform to the left with the train on the right waiting in the other platform for his slot to head outbound. The inbound train receives a green and theatre indicator to the open platform, crosses the points, goes into the platform and when its cleared everything the other train proceeds but no aspect changes in the signal facing the right hand platform. The only aspect that changes is the one on the outbound line past the points.

I'm at this point my suspicion is that its impossible to solve because finding similar layouts in actual DLC routes show the same issue, such as at WCML over Shap's Carlisle or even in the newer Wherry Lines.

[Rockdoc2174]

Without having the route to hand so I could see where the links have been placed it's difficult to know where to start but have you read UKTS 17690, Mark Brinton's guide to TS signalling? That's a very handy piece of work. One thing that jumps to mind is that signals don't work well if the links are too close to a point. They should always go onto a "plain" stretch of track. The second thing to point out is that signals do not initialise properly if you go straight from the World or Scenario Editors into the game and you can see effects such as you're describing then that do not occur of you go back to the Main Menu and go into the scenario from there.

Keith

[AndiS]

Is the signal that changes to green of another type as the ones following it? I guess so, and I wonder why this should be.

The link numbered 1 of the signal on the right that does not clear must go to where the inbound train is on the first picture. Link 2 must go beyond the facing points on the left straight, but in approach to the signal there, not beyond.

Does the outbound train have its destination set to the far end of the left-hand track? If the signals are right, then the schedule is wrong. It looks as if the inbound train wants to reverse and take the left-hand track and the other train stays put. Are the points move to set the path for the right-hand train?

[PFunk]

Is the signal that changes to green of another type as the ones following it? I guess so, and I wonder why this should be.

The 4 nearest signals from the picture's perspective are controlled and the rest beyond are automatic. It just seems a normal arrangement when exiting platforms for the first few to be controlled before leading onto a string of automatics. The furthest controlled signal also lets me see when the routing changes for the outbound loco because if it were auto the it'll just be green the whole time.

Does the outbound train have its destination set to the far end of the left-hand track?

Yes, beyond all the visible signals.

Are the points move to set the path for the right-hand train?

Yes and everything is on automatic point setting track here. I would have included a picture of the outbound train crossing the points and heading out but I'm limited to 3 attachments. The trains move as I say they do and exactly as the timetable instructs and its only the signals that don't display the expected aspect. If I throw an extra signal on the inbound line and slot in a third loco to enter the vacant platform left by the outbound train what also happens is the inbound controlled signal doesn't display a proceed aspect either though the third train continues on in.

I just went through it all again, set the various links in every possible way I can think of that makes sense and ways that are obviously wrong that produce reliably incorrect aspects and still end up with the same problem of the platform signals not changing after an inbound train crosses the points across the lines. Things only work correctly when its two outbound trains/inbound trains or an outbound and inbound that don't cross any points and just go straight through. I even changed the type of signals from JTMS to UKPro and its identical behavior.

I assume by how you're framing your replies you know or think this ought to be a functional layout. Maybe if someone lays this out themselves they'll see my problems. I could diagram how I'm placing the links if that helps.

[PFunk]

I've mocked up a simple diagram of the layout. Included are all the controlled signals with their links coloured. The blue zero denotes a 0T controlled signal on the outbound line. All others are 2Ts. Not included are simple auto signals on both mainline sections.

I've already said this but I've moved the links around plenty with no success. If a train goes across these points diagonally either inbound or out it seems to not trigger a green aspect for a train waiting at the opposite side.

[AndiS]

I have good news and bad news for you: I cannot see anything to fault (almost); so I have no idea what to do here (almost).

You could swap the red links 1 and 2 because signals that show a feather show it for link 2 normally.

If you use signals without feather, I suggest you try those with one. The others may not want to show anything for link 2, but I don't believe that. More importantly, swapping the controlled signals brings in a tiny chance that there is some unknown weird issue with one of the signals and by sticking in another one it suddenly works. Then we got something for a start.

[dewilkinson]

I have found that if the links from two signals are in the same point on the track they can interfere with each other. The solution is to link them to separate lengths of track. In some cases I have found it simplest to link one to the middle of the cross over. Whilst this is not prototypical, the effect looks correct in scenario.

[AndiS]

On German forums, I read the view that ribbon boundaries matter even on plain track. I never found a confirmation for that myself but that does not mean you should not consider it.

I would not go so far as to place links where you would not place them. Just split the track between links and weld it again to get rid of the buffer stops. You should see a yellow or red ribbon boundary then on the otherwise unaltered track.

You are quite free to place these numbered links anywhere between the convergence of the trailing points (the yellow/red ribbon boundary is what matters, not the rendered points) and quite a few metres from their. The only thing that could happen if you place them too far is that a light engine could be standing between the points and the track link when the path changes. In many places, there is no issue with this at all.

[PFunk]

I don't suppose someone wants to replicate my layout and see if the issue is not just localized to me?

[dewilkinson]

I wonder if you have fallen into the trap that signals do not always work properly when in editing mode. I recreated your set up and placed a destination at each end, created a scenario to run two trains crossing over, then reversing and crossing over. In editing mode the signals did not work properly, but on the scenario they were fine with all signals showing the correct aspect at the correct time. (The signals on the far side of the second crossover have been twisted so I could see what they showed). This photo shows the left train having crossed over to the right, and the right hand train about to cross over to the left.

[PFunk]

Well I was sure I'd tried it many ways through the regular scenarios and not just in the editor. How thorough do you have to be? Is it enough to start the scenario from the editor, quit then press the replay button or do you have to quit the whole program and restart it? I'd done a bit of both (mostly thanks to crashes here and there). I'll try it again.

That said, my issue was always with trains going in both directions. I never had issues with the signals showing the correct aspect when both left or both arrived. Its only when trains are facing each other and one comes inbound across and the other goes outbound after. I just want to be sure that's what you did and it wasn't just two trains both going in the same direction.

[dewilkinson]

I made a second scenario with trains approaching from opposite directions on the same track and it worked fine, one being held until the other had crossed over, signals then clearing. It also worked with either train arriving first.

I used BC 3A 2T signals for this test. This image shows the signal links. Try running a scenario from the drive menu rather than from the editor just to check. Perhaps try changing the signals you are using. I know I have been unable to get some signals to work in some circumstances but I don't understand why, but a bit of compromise does not distract from the driving experience unless you are rivet counter.

Cannot suggest anything else so I hope you get it fixed.

[PFunk]

Yea I managed to get it working. I was probably not being as careful about testing in proper scenarios and was in fact suffering from editor scenario error though several times it was started from scratch, quit, restarted and had the same issue so I think part of it may have been setting wrong links and getting bad result then being lazy later on once the hair pulling had commenced but ironically after I'd actually solved the links.

Sorry to have wasted everyone's time with a standard "did you read the FAQ?" issue in the end. I do of course appreciate everyone's willingness to help. Great community here and I'm glad I finally joined in.

Thanks again.

[dewilkinson]

Glad you got it sorted , it was a nice little exercise to have a play with. As you found out you have to be very careful, links have to be in the right place and link arrows must point in the right direction, it is easy to forget to change these.