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Newbie attempt to create new routes

Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:11 pm
by shovel6coles
I have read or at least heard of many developers creating new routes that are in reality extensions to existing RSC routes, or made purely from scratch from one place to another. The Birmingham scenario is a good example. I would like to know if I can do the same using Google Map Overlay to create or extend existing routes. If it is possible, then I really would like to now how to go about it.

Thanks


Roger

Re: Newbie attempt to create new routes

Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:43 pm
by chrisy11
Hi Roger and welcome to the forums

If you want to extend an existing route make a clone of it . Go into the Build menu in TS2014 find the route you want to extend then hit clone and give it a new name. This way you still have the original route. And you can do what you like with the clone without worrying about breaking the original if things go wrong.
If its a real world route that is still in use today then you should be able to follow the route line with Google overlay, However The overlay will only show you the line of the track, You will also need gradient profiles info on track layout for points and junction ect. Research is key , get as much info as you can from books, the net and maps ect.

For routes that are long gone however its a little more Difficult. You may still be able to pick out the old track bed on google overlay but on the route im working on for example around Nottingham it has been completely obliterated . This is where ever more research comes in , finding old OS maps and trying to piece together where everything went.

If your starting a fresh route you will need to have a start point and know its Longitude and latitude to enter in to TS when you first create the route.

Have a read of this thread is a good place to start. Keith is a bit of a legend in TS route building. He built The west Coast Mainline and Western Lines of Scotland Routes.

http://forums.uktrainsim.com/viewtopic. ... 65&t=98997

There's alot of information on just about every thing on these Forums. Its how i got started and i have learned a hell of lot from them. So have a good dig around and ask lots of questions. Route build is a bit daunting at 1st but when you get the hang of it and learn a few skills its very rewarding.

Regards
Chris Baker

Re: Newbie attempt to create new routes

Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:47 pm
by shovel6coles
Thanks for the response Chris.

What I would like to do, if as you say clone a route and do whatever I want with it, is to use Google Map Overlay. I got into the interest after reading about RWDecal, but with problems I had with installing I wrote to the Jim the developer and sought help from him. He replied back with the news that TS2014 now had Google Map Overlay and suggested using that as it was much simpler(Says he).Now would you agree that it is dangerous to mix 2 programs together? I mean I was following RWDecal steps to create a route and duly got down to it with plotting a path. I had previously setup the Google Map Overlay settings and Google Earth was loaded up and did the necessary after filling in the path details etc.

QAfter finishing the route I duly saved it as an kml file and saved it to Desktop. All the time I was referring to RWDcals steps and that put me off somewhat because I was using Google Earth direct and not RWDecal program, so anything referring to RWDecal didn't help with things.

Anyway, not to be deterred in any way, because I am on a learning curve and learn by mistakes, I opened up TS2014 and when the World Editor popped up I selected CTRL+G but nothing happened. So I thought "I bet that has something to do with unlocking the route". I had been studying Marleymans tutorial also. needless to say I was back to square one none the wiser for my first attempt.

I do wish that there was a detailed tutorial somewhere. There have been some skirting the issues but what I want is how to do it from a newbie point of view. First how to set things up before attempting a new route. Then how to use the Google Map Overlay and what to do when you do everything to get the thing to fit together in the end run. I've done the API bit so I don't have to worry how to do that after I learned how to go through the problems of miss-information or lack of

Roger.

Re: Newbie attempt to create new routes

Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:27 am
by chrisy11
Hi Roger.

Im pretty much a newbie myself , i started about year ago so can understand where your coming from. I had a nightmare trying to get route makers ect in to the game when i 1st started. I used RW decal in the end , But i don't really need them now with the new Google overlay feature.

There is no danger mixing RW decal and Google over lay. Decal just imports the images into TS so there always there as hard copy images , Google overlay just streams them and projects them over the terrain . I have both now as i started with decal. the difference is you need to place Decal yourself where google does it for you.
But as Jim has said to you, Decal is kind of obsolete with the event of Overlay . So from a newbie point i would go for Google overlay as its much easier to use.

Let me know what exactly what you want to know how to do and i will try and walk you through it. Are you trying to extend an existing route or start a fresh ?

Chris

Re: Newbie attempt to create new routes

Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:51 am
by hertsbob
Hi

Couple of points to make here. RWDecal still has its uses, and I personally find it far easier to work with if I'm building large sections of route underground. As you do. :wink:

The GE Overlay can sometimes be a bit reluctant to display for some reason, so you may have to do a bit of random clicking in between Ctrl+G presses. Oddly enough I often find it works better if I use the right hand Ctrl button on the keyboard... :-?

Also bear in mind that unless the GE Overlay is on its lowest height setting it has a tendency to kind of wander about depending on the angle you're viewing the route from.

Cheers

Bob

Re: Newbie attempt to create new routes

Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 1:44 pm
by Acorncomputer
hertsbob wrote:Hi

Couple of points to make here. RWDecal still has its uses, and I personally find it far easier to work with if I'm building large sections of route underground. As you do. :wink:

The GE Overlay can sometimes be a bit reluctant to display for some reason, so you may have to do a bit of random clicking in between Ctrl+G presses. Oddly enough I often find it works better if I use the right hand Ctrl button on the keyboard... :-?

Also bear in mind that unless the GE Overlay is on its lowest height setting it has a tendency to kind of wander about depending on the angle you're viewing the route from.

Cheers

Bob
I agree with everything Bob has said :D

I have not had to install RW Decal for a while, I just use it, but I think you cannot use the current version of Google Earth with it, you have to download and install an earlier version.

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Re: Newbie attempt to create new routes

Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:41 pm
by thethirdrail
Hi Roger

Welcome to the forum and to the wonderful world of route creation! The thought of building or modifying a route can seem an overwhelming prospect at first, but prepare properly and it's not nearly as hard as you'd think. Like Chris said above, research is key.

Here's my two-pennies worth. Some of this has been covered elsewhere, but this is my take on it based on my route building experience...

What's your plan?

In my opinion, the very FIRST thing you need to do is decide whether you're going to build your own route from scratch or extend an existing one.

If you're extending an existing route, be it payware or freeware, and you want to distribute it on UKTS, or anywhere else for that matter, you need to know that's it's ok to do so. You can pretty much do what you like to any route you have installed, if it's for personal use, because nobody would be any the wiser. It's when you want to make it available to others that you need to be careful.

In the case of RSC pay-ware my understanding is, according to their EULA, that you can modify and re-distribute a route as long as you do not re-package and distribute the assets with it. Doing so would effectively be providing people with a free copy of a pay ware route!

As for as other pay-ware routes, such as those from Just Trains, it would be wise to check the individual licenses. With freeware routes, such as those in the UKTS libraries, you'd need to check with the relevant author. It's only polite! Some may let you, others will not. That's their perogative :)

Bear in mind of course, that what ever route you're modifying and/or using assets from, the end user will need to own that route, be it as part of the TS package, DLC or other medium, to be able to use it. The same goes for a scratch route. Unless you're using only the default assets, or indeed freeware assets, the fewer payware packages you use assets from, the more people can use your route properly.

As an example, I am currently in the process of extending the default Great Western London to Oxford route. Anybody who wants to drive it will need to either own the original TS2012 (now TS2014) with which the GWML was included, or TS2014 with the GWML DLC. Without these, all they would see is terraformed land, because they don't have the right assets.

Terraforming

The next decision should be how realistic you want your terrain to be. The easy option is a billiard table route with no gradients. If you're building a railway in Holland or Florida then this might suffice! But if you're after realism, then you're going need two things. DEM data (available free on UKTS) and gradient data.

The DEM is easy to import into the route builder and will provide you with accurate terrain elevation data. There are instructions included with the ZIP files as far as I can remember. Or just ask!

The best source for the gradient profiles is the Ian Allen British Mainline Gradient Profiles. I've just checked Amazon and they have 5 available for a tenner a piece. If you shop around you may find it cheaper. I got it for £3 delivered from ABE Books, but I think that was a lucky find! If you want accurate gradient data, you need this book, as this information is hard to come by any other way (believe me I've tried). Be aware though, that the book only has mainline data so make sure that it contains the route you want before you waste your money (ask me and I'll check for you). Also be aware that the book was compiled in the days of steam! The information is however still relevant today, and it's very detailed.

If you can't or don't want to make that investment, you might just get away with simply snapping your track to the terrain and having your railway follow the profile of your landscape, or of course building a flat railway line. It all boils down to the level of realism that you're after.

RW Decal or Google Overlay?

Just to expand on the subject above. RW Decal is a very powerful tool. It's also very involved and necessitates the use of RW Tools. It's main advantage over Google is that the decals stay put until you delete them, whereas Google continually generates and deletes the tiles in relation to where your camera view is.

However, in my opinion, Google is infinitely easier to use. Depending on your internet speed, RWDecal can take hours to generate the tiles for even just a small route. Also, the tiles need to be laid manually. Before the implementation of the Google overlay, RW was the weapon of choice for my route creation and I'm eternally grateful to the author for the usage I got from it . However, being able to hit CTRL-G and have the work done for you, is just TOO convenient! Just make sure you have generated you Google earth API and no further action should be required. Again, ask if in doubt. It's easy to do.

Tools of the Trade

Before you start building, familiarise yourself fully with the route editor. Google and Youtube are your friends here. You are likely to use each and every tool at some point so it's important you know what each one is for and how it works. Feel free to play around with them. A practice route is a good way to start; something that you don't mind messing up. That way you'll get used to the editor's little idiosyncrasies and its limitations. The more you know about each tool the better prepared you'll be to use them effectively when you start to build for real. And don't underestimate the usefulness of the UNDO button!

Other resources

Track Maps

You can find these on t'internet. They'll probably set you back anything up to £11-12 but depending on which railway line or lines you're building, one area (Western for example) might suffice. The books contain a lot of data useful to route builders, not least siding and junction names, the locations of level crossings, mileages, line directionality and of course line section names.

Route Sectional Appendicies

These PDFs can be downloaded from Network Rail. As far as I know, these are the only complete and reliable source of speed limits for the whole of the UK network. Better still, they're entirely free! Download here http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/10563.aspx on the right hand side of the page. You need these! Don't bother applying for unrestricted access to National Electronic Sectional Appendix though. Unless you work for a professional organisation with direct links to the rail network, they won't give it to you!

Google Street View

Be it a bridge over the line or a road nearby with unobscured views of the track, this has proved invaluable to me in the past. Google images and Flickr are also a good source, especially for station photography. There are a lot of enthusiasts out there taking a hell of a lot of photographs! And what better excuse for a day trip than taking your own... :)

DVDs

Driver's view / Cab Ride / Driver's Eye. What ever the title is these contain a wealth of information and are a worthy investment. They are especially useful, if not essential, for the placement of track infrastructure; signals, signs, junction boxes, line-side buildings. The list goes on! The downside is that they fill a very specialist niche and as a result can be quite pricey. So shop around. Or, check on the forum and you may find somebody with a used copy to sell...

If the cost of a DVD is too restricting you may be lucky enough to find a cab-ride for your route, or part thereof, on YouTube. They do exist!

I hope this has been of some help you you. One more important resource to remember is us. There are a lot of members on this forum more than willing and capable to help you out, with both route building and scenario writing.

Above all, have fun! The route builder can be frustrating and confusing at times, but don't let this put you off. The feeling of creating even just a station and a few miles of line in either direction is extremely satisfying and the more you practice, the more proficient you'll become.

If you need help any with anything, PM me.

Cheers and happy buidling!

T3R

Re: Newbie attempt to create new routes

Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:46 am
by shovel6coles
Thanks for the in depth reply T3R.

In real depth reading I will have to look into it in more detail later. But first off I want to give you details on your first query, "What's my plan?"

Specs first as it's important I think.

Windows Experience Index Base score: 7.8

Video Card: Driver: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 680 2GB

Processor: Intel Core i7 3770K

Motherboard: Asus P8Z77-V LX

Memory: 16GB PC3-12800 Memory 1600MHZ DDR3

Primary Drive: 120GB Corsair Force 3 6Gb/s SATA III SSD (C: Drive)

Secondary Drive 1000GB SATA 7200rpm Hard Disk (FSX) (E: Drive)

PSU: 750 watt Corsair PSU

OS: Windows 7 Home Premium 64bit OEM

Now as a taster here is what I want to do, first off to get to grips with a test path route before I attempt the big one.

First off my intended test route is from Reading West station to Basingstoke. The original route on the GWML scenarios go as far as a few yards from Reading West Junction.

When I get the hang of plotting a path, then adding scenery as a start, I want to attempt to extend the route from Willesden Junction which is just buffers at this moment in time, to Stratford. I've had a fascination on the route through North London. I know it's complex, and I won't attempt it until I'm proficient enough to tackle it.

Of course as you laid out the pros and cons, I would like to know where I stand with creating a route that isn't yet developed by RSC or whoever.

I also need to know if the current version of Google Earth(7.1.2 I think which I installed the other day) is ok to use with TS2014 Google Map Overlay. I don't really want to combine Google Maps Overlay with RWDecal because I've tried the RWDecal way with plotting a route to Basingstoke but it didn't work. Because I used GE 7.1.2, I wondered if it wasn't compatible because RWDecal doesn't work with GE over 6.1. So I need that to be verified.

As I said, I attempted a test route and did as per instructions from Google Map Overlay along with the leading steps given by RWDecal. I really want to give Google Map Overlay a try over RWdecal because RW is a pain to configure the set up.

I first encountered the problem when RW stated I should look for the Source folder which should be in RailWorks in Program Files on the C: Drive. That was the first problem because as I only had 32GB of space left on the C: I had to move it to the larger E: Drive, and of course when looking at the path, Source wasn't in the RailWorks folder on the E: Drive.

So what I did was to attempt to configure the folders and made a SOURCE folder and placed it into the RailWorks folder. Then the REAL problem started. It told me I needed to setup the Developer folder. There I was stumped because all it told me was to look at Wiki Railworks and look to see what it was. I gave up when I looked at Wiki and was in a sense back to square one.


I'll end on this point because it's mind boggling. All I ever wanted was to find somewhere a tutorial solely for the program I wanted to use, with no stop gaps that would disable my attempt to create something. TS2014 Google Maps Overlay Tutorial Part 12 is on YT but the most important part is missing from that particular tutorial. The creator stated that he would show how to setup with the API Key and then went through the steps to settings for Google Map Overlay. When he had done that he went to the next stage which completely left out the main part I wanted to see. He stated that he had already created a route so wouldn't go into that and carried on with the next part. I was left in limbo and somewhat disappointed by that missing part.

That's all for now.


Roger

Re: Newbie attempt to create new routes

Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:49 am
by Acorncomputer
HI

It is not necessary to have a Google API Key, you will still get access to the data without it. The key is for people or organisations who may be accessing the data on a higher than average daily rate and may provide better resolution images but for most people creating in TS2104, the daily limit and possible lower resolution of non API Key access will not really affect them.

RW Decal has the advantage of being able to extract decal information from older time period maps on Google Earth which is useful if creating a route from an earlier era. 1945 maps are available for some parts of the country for example.

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Re: Newbie attempt to create new routes

Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 2:05 am
by shovel6coles
Thanks Acorn, been a while since I last posted. I thought that using API Key gave users a better service as the unlicensed version wouldn't give the detailed look.

Anyway, that's another subject I'm still learning. I haven't really progressed with the TS2014 version as I'm still leaning towards RWDecal for a learning start so I can learn how to do things.

I want to know if TS2014 Google Map Overlay needs the stringent requirements as RWDecal has in the way it tells you that you must have a configured folder for developer. Because I haven't as yet managed to do a test route I can't supply the folder I think it is asking for as a valid configuration.

Let me state just for the record what I have tried so far.

As I think I've explained, I don't have Steam installed in the usual default. I have my Steam of a different drive and this is what my path looks like:

E:\Steam\SteamApps\common\RailWorks\Source\Shovel\<------- If I had a project saved like the test I plan on doing, then I assume that would go here as the Program folder. On installation, just in case I have the path incorrect as I've named it as per the location of the serz.exe that I was told to specify location. My install was E:\Shovel\RWDecal2


I just need a guiding hand to whether I have surmised correctly or is there another way?


Roger

Re: Newbie attempt to create new routes

Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:42 am
by Acorncomputer
Hello Roger

You do not have to install the TS2014 Googlemap overlay at all. It is there for for everyone to use as an automatically loaded feature as long as you are connected to the internet. Curiously the overlay still works even if Steam is offline but your computer is connected to the internet.

It is long time since I installed RW Decal so I am not sure of how it installed but if you have followed the manual that comes with RW Decal then you should be OK.

If you are developing a route or creating assets then as you say, you will need your own Developer Folder and a Product Folder for the particular project you are doing and these are both located in the Source Folder.

I don't think it matters much where Steam is installed but the file structure of the Steam Folder has to remain intact which includes the whole of the RailWorks Folder.

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Re: Newbie attempt to create new routes

Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 10:54 am
by shovel6coles
I'm having a bad time over this, and not just with your responses. Where did I ever mention anything about installing TS2014 Google Overlay Map? I'm not that dumb to know it's a new feature of TS2014. All I was asking was the configuration, like RWDecal, and did this same rule apply to TS2014? I suppose that I shall have to keep reading the manuals until I get the answers right in front of me.

You failed to answer my query regarding the correct path. I would never know, without getting confirmation from anyone who knew the correct answer.

I'm getting rather despondent by members reactions to my queries and treat me like some school boy who suffers from learning abilities. I'm just a newbie seeking out help and all I get is flippant replies and no solid results to what I really am struggling with.

Re: Newbie attempt to create new routes

Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:38 pm
by Acorncomputer
HI

I was just interpreting this part of your post.
I want to know if TS2014 Google Map Overlay needs the stringent requirements as RWDecal has in the way it tells you that you must have a configured folder for developer. Because I haven't as yet managed to do a test route I can't supply the folder I think it is asking for as a valid configuration.
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Re: Newbie attempt to create new routes

Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:44 pm
by Acorncomputer
Hi

There seems to be a problem in replying to your posts as there is possibly a 'forbidden' word in the posts somewhere which requires a Moderator to approve with the result that posts are appearing a long time after they are made. This means that a reply to a post could appear a long time after several new posts have been made.

Sorry about this but without knowing what the 'forbidden' words are it is a bit difficult to keep continuity with the posts and some may seem way out of context.

Please note that there are no flippant replies in this topic. People are genuinely trying to help you, but it is not always easy to grasp what the problem is.

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Re: Newbie attempt to create new routes

Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 6:42 pm
by hertsbob
Come on Geoff. Less of the flippancy and just ANSWER THE QUESTION!

:argue: