Atomic Systems

I know there has been a few threads on how to operate trains more realistically, but none of them(afaik) has really gone into depth about "non technical skills" and other important skills a driver needs to have to operate trains safely. My favorite locomotive at the moment is the Class 66, I've always had a thing for powerful diesels perhaps because they are so rare in my home country (Sweden). Obviously a real driver will have real training, experience, use of all his senses, etc but if we can generalize for a moment I'd love to hear bits of info you have picked up from reading about/talking to drivers or perhaps driving the locomotives yourselves, professionally. I'll try to bullet point my questions but I won't mind if the thread goes slightly off topic.

1. I know a usual "rule" (or even SOP) when driving under cautionary aspects is to follow 2/3 of the speed limit through double yellow signals and 1/3 through single yellow signals. I realize a lot of things might affect this rule but lets say the speed limit is 90mph and the signal block length is around 1000 yards (or thereabouts) would a freight train follow a similar rule of thumb or lower speeds? Does the trains rated speed limit change this? Would a 60mph rated freight keep its speed (2/3 being 60mph)?

2. When accelerating under cautionary aspects is there a limit on how much power you can use? I presume going to notch 8 starting in front of a single yellow is out of the question.

3. How do flashing yellow signals before a diverging route affect the "speed schedule"?

4. Approaching a signal at danger, is there any speed you should keep below when passing the AWS magnet or TPWS transmitter?

5. More specifically regarding the Class 66, when can or when can't notch 8 be used?

I think 1 and 2 are linked. But from my experience as freights take longer to stop. I would travel at a speed I know I can stop comfortably before the red aspect. So if a passenger was travelling at 60 under yellows. I'd say maybe reduce speed to 40 or 50 in the 66 - Depending on section lengths and train load.
I think with freight drivers it's about continuous momentum so trying to keep everything constant and operating the train in the most economical fashion.

Flashing yellows indicate that the next signal there will be a route change. So for me, I would already be questioning what's the linespeed of the diverging route? Again, this will depend on the route you're on, as loops on the mainline typically can be 30-40mph, a diverging route that's a branch could be say 25mph or entering a yard could be 15 or as low as 5mph. So, at the point of the flashing yellow or when I see it, I would be gradually bringing the speed down to 30mph as this gives enough time of braking enough before the diverging signal.

Approaching signals at danger for example in a loop or approaching a junction, I think common practice tends be like crawling up to it at 5mph or a little less, in hope that the signal will clear before the train comes to a stop.

I think notch 8 can be used at practically anytime, others will know better than me. But, if the route ahead is clear and there's no speed restrictions coming up. I would accelerate at notch 8 until a point I feel I can maintain acceleration at say notch 6 or 5 when nearing the train's class limit.
Realistically, this list may give an insight that TS doesn't take into consideration - The maximum speed for the train's working

Class 1,2,3 Can operate at line speed or the loco's max speed to my knowledge, so for the 66 this would be 75mph.
Class 4 - Freight train which can run up to 75 mph (120 km/h) - Typically these are container trains/Intermodals
Class 5 - Empty coaching stock train - Again this would be to the 66's max speed of 75.
Class 6 - Freight train which can run up to 60 mph (95 km/h) - Typically these would be ballast trains
Class 7 - Freight train which can run up to 45 mph (70 km/h)
Class 8 - Freight train which can run up to 35 mph (55 km/h) Not too sure on the last two if they are still in use much!

As far as i know max speed for a freight is class 4 75 mph,I don't recollect any freights running above this speed,even if the line speed is up to a 125 mph
Mike

michaelhendle wrote:As far as i know max speed for a freight is class 4 75 mph,I don't recollect any freights running above this speed,even if the line speed is up to a 125 mph
Mike

Aren't the Willesden-Shieldmuir postal services timed for 100mph?
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P ... 7/advanced

I didn't think the postal trains are classified as freight,mail trains run under class 1 classifiction,like 1A91Warrington Royal Mail Depot-Willesden,running today

You are correct Michael, Class 1.

Just a quick correction, train speed is determined by the vehicle with the lowest maximum speed within the consist, this is not necessarily the loco.

holzroller wrote:Just a quick correction, train speed is determined by the vehicle with the lowest maximum speed within the consist, this is not necessarily the loco.

Can't most freight cars in the UK run at 75mph empty these days?

zaphr89 wrote:1. I know a usual "rule" (or even SOP) when driving under cautionary aspects is to follow 2/3 of the speed limit through double yellow signals and 1/3 through single yellow signals. I realize a lot of things might affect this rule but lets say the speed limit is 90mph and the signal block length is around 1000 yards (or thereabouts) would a freight train follow a similar rule of thumb or lower speeds? Does the trains rated speed limit change this? Would a 60mph rated freight keep its speed (2/3 being 60mph)?

In the same way a freight train takes more time to get up to speed it takes longer to slow down without using a full brake application.
So the driver would run at reduced speeds approaching caution and especially after passing a single yellow.

zaphr89 wrote:2. When accelerating under cautionary aspects is there a limit on how much power you can use? I presume going to notch 8 starting in front of a single yellow is out of the question.

You are not driving a Car so when the signal is clear you don't drive at full power to the next stop signal and ram the brakes on
When accelerating away from a stop it will depend on the weight of the train and the power of the loco - going in to notch 8 from a stand and the loco would either spin it's wheels or overload and trip out.

zaphr89 wrote:3. How do flashing yellow signals before a diverging route affect the "speed schedule"?

What is a Speed Schedule?

zaphr89 wrote:4. Approaching a signal at danger, is there any speed you should keep below when passing the AWS magnet or TPWS transmitter?

You should not be going faster than 15mph approaching a Red. The TPWS will dump the brake if going faster than the speed it's set for.
Some passenger trains can go 20mph approaching an AWS but their brakes are better than a freight train.
Going it to a dead end platform the TPWS will dump the brakes above 10mph.

zaphr89 wrote:5. More specifically regarding the Class 66, when can or when can't notch 8 be used?

It's a bit of a strange question and the answer would depend on what is happening - if you are going down hill you won't need notch 8
Going uphill you might need notch 8 but you would have to keep an eye on the amps so it does not trip out.

Peter

749006 wrote: In the same way a freight train takes more time to get up to speed it takes longer to slow down without using a full brake application.
So the driver would run at reduced speeds approaching caution and especially after passing a single yellow.

I realize that but I was more interested in knowing if there were any similar rules of thumb but pertain specifically to freight trains. For example when passing double yellow don't exceed 1/a of line speed and when passing single yellow don't exceed 1/b of line speed, etc.
In searching for answers to my questions before starting this thread I came a cross a thread on the railforums.co.uk site where a driver of freight trains mentioned staying below half the line speed after passing single flashing yellow signals.

749006 wrote: You are not driving a Car so when the signal is clear you don't drive at full power to the next stop signal and ram the brakes on
When accelerating away from a stop it will depend on the weight of the train and the power of the loco - going in to notch 8 from a stand and the loco would either spin it's wheels or overload and trip out.

My example was a bit exaggerated, I admit but In the same thread I referenced above I read the suggestion/rule that you shouldn't use more than 50% power under cautionary aspects (I presume this would change if starting in an incline), so rules like that.

749006 wrote: What is a Speed Schedule?

With speed schedule I meant the 2/3 then 1/3 of line speed rule when passing double and yellow signals, respectively. I didn't know a better phrase to use. My question regarded how this would change when passing flashing signals since your distance to a potential signal at danger is increased in comparison to non-flashing double yellows but at the same time you have to prepare for a reduction in speed limit when taking the diverging route. Hope that makes more sense.

749006 wrote: It's a bit of a strange question and the answer would depend on what is happening - if you are going down hill you won't need notch 8
Going uphill you might need notch 8 but you would have to keep an eye on the amps so it does not trip out.

I have read earlier that at some point in time there was a restriction of the use of notch 8 in the class 66 because of sound issues (and/or fuel economy). So I was wondering if there exist any similar restrictions currently.

I guess generally I'm just looking for rules of thumb similar to "don't exceed this speed during this moment" if such do in fact exist, which I could build further "sim experience" on lol.

I have read earlier that at some point in time there was a restriction of the use of notch 8 in the class 66 because of sound issues (and/or fuel economy). So I was wondering if there exist any similar restrictions currently.

Thats correct, EWS implemented the use of a removable 'stop' which prevented notch 8 from being selected on the 66s a while back. From memory the 'stop' could be removed by a driver at his/her discretion though if required, though in the majority of cases a driver could get by using notch 7. Think this may still be the case though its been a long time since I've been near one TBH. Fuel economy on the 66s can be somewhat poor compared with other types on certain traffic flows. There were rumours around 10 or so years back that Freightliner were looking into the feasability of re-engining their 66s, though nothing came of it in the end.

When I drive a shed I never use notch eight and definitely don't put my feet on the console!

zaphr89 wrote:

749006 wrote: In the same way a freight train takes more time to get up to speed it takes longer to slow down without using a full brake application.
So the driver would run at reduced speeds approaching caution and especially after passing a single yellow.

I realize that but I was more interested in knowing if there were any similar rules of thumb but pertain specifically to freight trains. For example when passing double yellow don't exceed 1/a of line speed and when passing single yellow don't exceed 1/b of line speed, etc.

You are trying to apply a general rule to every train which does not work. The amount of power applied on any run would vary depending on where you are and the size of the train.
If you are on a rising gradient you are going to be applying a lot more power than a falling gradient.

zaphr89 wrote:where a driver of freight trains mentioned staying below half the line speed after passing single flashing yellow signals.

This is popycock. If he is on a section of track where the line speed is 125mph he will reduce from 75 to 62 but if he is on a 50mph track he will reduce to 25mph?
A Flashing Single Yellow tells the driver the next signal is Clear and is set for the junction.
His Road Knowledge would tell him that the Speed thru the junction is xx mph and he would reduce speed if required.

Example - on the WCML is Hanslope Jn, north of Wolverton. Line speed is 100 on the Slows and 125 on the Fasts and crossovers enable trains to go Fast to Slow or Slow to Fast with Flashing Double and Single Yellows to inform the driver.
Why would a Driver on a Freightliner doing 75mph slow to half that, 38mph, to go the the crossings which are 70mph crossing.

Peter

SkylineBoy wrote:You are correct Michael, Class 1.

Thanks, both, for the correction. I guess I was thinking of freight in its broadest sense.

749006 wrote: You are trying to apply a general rule to every train which does not work. The amount of power applied on any run would vary depending on where you are and the size of the train.
If you are on a rising gradient you are going to be applying a lot more power than a falling gradient.

Thanks, this of course makes perfect sense but also makes it harder to learn anything theoretically and then apply it in practice. I think I understand your answer though, the driver wants to follow a speed that enables the train to stop in time for a potential signal at danger with a brake force that is low enough that in case the rail adhesion becomes low it won’t risk a SPAD? So the problem (for me) now becomes knowing these unknown variables.

2.1 I guess different drivers drive differently (duh) so some will brake light and early, some will brake in steps i.e down to this x run a while then another increment etc. Is there an established method that is deemed superior or is it just down to the individual drivers taste?

2.2 If the presumption I made earlier is correct then I think I’ll be able to build my own ingame experience further but one thing I’m interested in is whether drivers often use fullservice brake during a non emergency, non surprise stop, or would it be more common to use a lower level? Again probably subjective but I’m fine with your subjective opinion rather than nothing.

749006 wrote: This is popycock. If he is on a section of track where the line speed is 125mph he will reduce from 75 to 62 but if he is on a 50mph track he will reduce to 25mph?
A Flashing Single Yellow tells the driver the next signal is Clear and is set for the junction.
His Road Knowledge would tell him that the Speed thru the junction is xx mph and he would reduce speed if required.

Example - on the WCML is Hanslope Jn, north of Wolverton. Line speed is 100 on the Slows and 125 on the Fasts and crossovers enable trains to go Fast to Slow or Slow to Fast with Flashing Double and Single Yellows to inform the driver.
Why would a Driver on a Freightliner doing 75mph slow to half that, 38mph, to go the the crossings which are 70mph crossing.

Peter

This also makes sense if not expecting a signal at danger at the end of the signal distance but I thought you should always expect it to be double flashing yellow - single flashing yellow - single yellow - red. Did I misunderstand something?