Driving freight trains realistically

[skoda]

I have read earlier that at some point in time there was a restriction of the use of notch 8 in the class 66 because of sound issues (and/or fuel economy). So I was wondering if there exist any similar restrictions currently.

Thats correct, EWS implemented the use of a removable 'stop' which prevented notch 8 from being selected on the 66s a while back. From memory the 'stop' could be removed by a driver at his/her discretion though if required, though in the majority of cases a driver could get by using notch 7. Think this may still be the case though its been a long time since I've been near one TBH. Fuel economy on the 66s can be somewhat poor compared with other types on certain traffic flows. There were rumours around 10 or so years back that Freightliner were looking into the feasability of re-engining their 66s, though nothing came of it in the end.

The stop isn't removable but is shaped so that the power handle can be pulled out slightly (it's pulled against a spring) and moved over it to click into notch 8 . Its been 8 years since I drove for the red (Red & gold) teams so the rules may of changed since then . Use of notch 8 was at the drivers discretion based on the whether the train was towards the weight limit for the loco on that section of line and or if the train was running late and there was insufficient running time in the schedule to catch up .

It used to be 10 mph over a magnet approaching a red (they would check via regular downloads of the Qtron data recorder) and to stop a loco's length from the signal (66 length wise) . Operation of the power controller on the 66 was one notch at a time , not 1 to 8 in one movement (once again checked via Qtron downloads) .

[zaphr89]

How fast can you notch down during normal operations? For example if you are near full power and approach a morpeth board. Perhaps this is one of those situations when “you should already be coasting by this point”.

[skoda]

Notch down the same way you notch up , one at a time . Obviously emergency situations , change of signal aspect to a more restrictive aspect etc. over rule that . Route knowledge is key to getting it right .
Humans make mistakes so sometimes it becomes a bit late to shut off normally , so you fast notch down and its recorded on the Qtron , Most of the time the inspectors weren't bothered but if they could see a pattern forming of regular abuse then it was a quiet word in the corridor or a "Just the man , Have you got 5 minutes for a chat in the office" !

[749006]

Again probably subjective but I’m fine with your subjective opinion rather than nothing.

My Subjective Opinion was based from working 28 years as Train Crew - Guard then Driver.

This also makes sense if not expecting a signal at danger at the end of the signal distance but I thought you should always expect it to be double flashing yellow - single flashing yellow - single yellow - red. Did I misunderstand something?

When you go thru a sequence what Should happen but dosen't properly in the game is
Flashing Double Yellow (if on 4 Aspects), Flashing Single Yellow, Junction Signal showing Single Yellow or even Double Yellow or Green.
So the driver would know before reaching the junction signal if he needs to stop at the signal after it.

How fast can you notch down during normal operations? For example if you are near full power and approach a morpeth board. Perhaps this is one of those situations when “you should already be coasting by this point”.

With a Diesel you just go from Full power to Off, same with Modern Electrics - with an older Class 81 to 87 these have tapchanger control and the driver has to allow time to reduce power.
He can go straight to Off but he would have to wait for the tapchanger to reset to zero before he could apply power.

What is a Morpeth Board?
Do you mean an Advanced Warning Board like this - http://www.railsigns.uk/photos/p_psr2/pic_wimueps.jpg
The simple answer is he would not be on Full Power if he is approaching a board because He Knows It's There

Because you have not driven over a section of line in the game does not mean a Real Driver is new to the line he is driving over.
He has to learn the route before being allowed to drive over it.
He has to know every Signal, what it can show, where it leads for a Junction Signal and how far it is to the next.
And he has to know every permanent speed restriction on the line - the Advanced Warning Board is just a reminder

Finally this might answer some questions

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Peter

[bvetmd]

The stop isn't removable but is shaped so that the power handle can be pulled out slightly (it's pulled against a spring) and moved over it to click into notch 8 . Its been 8 years since I drove for the red (Red & gold) teams so the rules may of changed since then . Use of notch 8 was at the drivers discretion based on the whether the train was towards the weight limit for the loco on that section of line and or if the train was running late and there was insufficient running time in the schedule to catch up .

Ah yes indeed ! Cheers for that Skoda, I remember seeing the set up now, basically like a stepped wedge at the end of the power controller travel. Like I said its been a long time since I was in the cab of one, plus the fact the old grey matter isn't what it used to be

[holzroller]

Just a quick correction, train speed is determined by the vehicle with the lowest maximum speed within the consist, this is not necessarily the loco.

Can't most freight cars in the UK run at 75mph empty these days?

No, quite a few can't, and neither can quite a few Freight loco's, a fair chunk of class 66 are 60 mph max as are Class 60's to name a couple.

[dingerb]

Morpeth Board.
Following a derailment on the curve at Morpeth on 7 May 1969, the British Railways Board agreed to the provision of advance warning indicators on approach to certain speed restrictions. The new indicators, which first appeared in 1971 and became known as 'Morpeth boards', had yellow figures within a yellow border on a circular black background. They were placed at braking distance in rear of the start of the speed restriction and in many cases were floodlit at night. An advance warning indicator applicable to a speed restriction on a diverging route carried an additional directional arrow below. A vertical arrow was exhibited below an advance warning indicator that applied to a speed restriction on the straight route beyond a diverging junction.

[brysonman46]

Morpeth Board.
Following a derailment on the curve at Morpeth on 7 May 1969, the British Railways Board agreed to the provision of advance warning indicators on approach to certain speed restrictions. The new indicators, which first appeared in 1971 and became known as 'Morpeth boards', had yellow figures within a yellow border on a circular black background. They were placed at braking distance in rear of the start of the speed restriction and in many cases were floodlit at night. An advance warning indicator applicable to a speed restriction on a diverging route carried an additional directional arrow below. A vertical arrow was exhibited below an advance warning indicator that applied to a speed restriction on the straight route beyond a diverging junction.

These Advance Warning Indicators have been obsolescent for some time

[749006]

Morpeth Board.
Following a derailment on the curve at Morpeth on 7 May 1969, the British Railways Board agreed to the provision of advance warning indicators on approach to certain speed restrictions. The new indicators, which first appeared in 1971 and became known as 'Morpeth boards', had yellow figures within a yellow border on a circular black background. They were placed at braking distance in rear of the start of the speed restriction and in many cases were floodlit at night. An advance warning indicator applicable to a speed restriction on a diverging route carried an additional directional arrow below. A vertical arrow was exhibited below an advance warning indicator that applied to a speed restriction on the straight route beyond a diverging junction.

These Advance Warning Indicators have been obsolescent for some time

Some of the Earlier designs have been superseded but there are still boards in use today
http://www.railsigns.uk/photos/p_psr2/pic_wimueps.jpg

Peter

[smarty2]

Yeah, Pete, that link doesn't work, hotlinking isn't allowed.

[brysonman46]

Morpeth Board.
Following a derailment on the curve at Morpeth on 7 May 1969, the British Railways Board agreed to the provision of advance warning indicators on approach to certain speed restrictions. The new indicators, which first appeared in 1971 and became known as 'Morpeth boards', had yellow figures within a yellow border on a circular black background. They were placed at braking distance in rear of the start of the speed restriction and in many cases were floodlit at night. An advance warning indicator applicable to a speed restriction on a diverging route carried an additional directional arrow below. A vertical arrow was exhibited below an advance warning indicator that applied to a speed restriction on the straight route beyond a diverging junction.

These Advance Warning Indicators have been obsolescent for some time

Some of the Earlier designs have been superseded but there are still boards in use today
http://www.railsigns.uk/photos/p_psr2/pic_wimueps.jpg

Peter

I was referring to the "Morpeth boards" being obsolescent. The modern ones are different

[zaphr89]

When you go thru a sequence what Should happen but dosen't properly in the game is
Flashing Double Yellow (if on 4 Aspects), Flashing Single Yellow, Junction Signal showing Single Yellow or even Double Yellow or Green.
So the driver would know before reaching the junction signal if he needs to stop at the signal after it.

Interesting, I didn't know that.
Am I correct in understanding this site https://www.davros.org/rail/signalling/ ... tions.html as in the case you mentioned the junction signal would step up to a double yellow/green at a certain distance away or would it be at that less cautionary aspect from the beginning?

What is a Morpeth Board?
Do you mean an Advanced Warning Board like this - http://www.railsigns.uk/photos/p_psr2/pic_wimueps.jpg

Ironically enough I picked that name up from the PTGRail youtuber you linked and indeed I mean't Advanced Warning Board. I thought morpeth board was the slang/colloquial name for these kinds of boards but I guess they were an earlier model.
That was a very helpful link btw. Thanks.

Because you have not driven over a section of line in the game does not mean a Real Driver is new to the line he is driving over.
He has to learn the route before being allowed to drive over it.
He has to know every Signal, what it can show, where it leads for a Junction Signal and how far it is to the next.
And he has to know every permanent speed restriction on the line - the Advanced Warning Board is just a reminder

This I'm painfully aware of, especially since I actually got a SPAD yesterday. I was approaching a signal yellow at a speed appropriate to stop in time but after passing the AWS magnet the aspect stepped up to double yellow, thus I thought I wouldn't need to stop in the next block so I kept my speed and got a nasty surprise around the corner. Is this realistic or a bug and would it be standard operating procedure to react according to the original aspect after the AWS magnet (i.e. preparing to stop in my case) irl?


1. Going back to my earlier question about preferred brake step/force. In passenger trains it seems like drivers usually use step 1-2 (1 mostly for small speed limit drops and right before stopping) and 3 as a backup.
Freight trains don't have passengers so comfort might not be as necessary as long as potentially fragile cargo is unharmed but full service still seems a bit excessive since I can usually stop in almost one signal block with full service, especially if my speed is lower is below the speed limit. I know in Sweden and Germany 1 bar reduction is often used instead of 1.5 or full service (unusual circumstances aside) but UK operations are of course different. Does anyone have an input or can the answer be summed up like the thread "it depends"

2. Also: watching some cab rides of class 66 on youtube they seem to run quite a bit below 60 mph many times and that made me think of a phrase yyyyamst used in a different thread "stall out". Would freight trains every be drive in such a way as to almost stall out due to gradient/friction before a signal/stop like American freight trains or is it simply meant as a synonym to braking?

3. Sometimes I feel almost guilty just coasting below the line speed limit/train speed limit if I expect a stop/reduction in speed, when slotted in between commuter trains. How much leeway do the freight timetables give to going slow and economically when on a busy mainline?
Perhaps a war wound from all the aggressive passenger timetables in TS.

[749006]

Am I correct in understanding this site https://www.davros.org/rail/signalling/ ... tions.html as in the case you mentioned the junction signal would step up to a double yellow/green at a certain distance away or would it be at that less cautionary aspect from the beginning?

That is a very good explanation of how the signalling works with flashing Yellows

This I'm painfully aware of, especially since I actually got a SPAD yesterday. I was approaching a signal yellow at a speed appropriate to stop in time but after passing the AWS magnet the aspect stepped up to double yellow, thus I thought I wouldn't need to stop in the next block so I kept my speed and got a nasty surprise around the corner. Is this realistic or a bug and would it be standard operating procedure to react according to the original aspect after the AWS magnet (i.e. preparing to stop in my case) irl?

If the Signalling system gave you a Double Yellow then a Red it is a Bug and is wrong.

Going back to my earlier question about preferred brake step/force. In passenger trains it seems like drivers usually use step 1-2 (1 mostly for small speed limit drops and right before stopping) and 3 as a backup.
Freight trains don't have passengers so comfort might not be as necessary as long as potentially fragile cargo is unharmed but full service still seems a bit excessive since I can usually stop in almost one signal block with full service, especially if my speed is lower is below the speed limit. I know in Sweden and Germany 1 bar reduction is often used instead of 1.5 or full service (unusual circumstances aside) but UK operations are of course different. Does anyone have an input or can the answer be summed up like the thread "it depends" .

The brakes on a modern DMU/EMU which use a 3 step brake are nothing like those used on mainline locos which use the normal 5 bar brake system where the pressure is reduced to apply the brakes.
The amount of pressure reduced is up to the driver but no driver would wait until the last signal before a red and then give it a Full Service because if he does not stop it's a possible accident and a probable disciplinary action/dismissal.
On sighting a cautionary aspect the driver would shut off and reduce speed. Full service might be used if a driver came across an Emergency Temporary Speed Restriction and the speed needs to be reduced quickly.

I don't know which routes you have in the game but find one with a good gradient and do a free roam with a heavy train and notice the difference on how long it takes to stop in either direction, up hill & down hill.
So it will depend on where the train is, how fast it's going and how much the speed needs to be reduced by as to how much brake the driver applies.

Some of these videos might help - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3jO9N ... qxQ/videos

Peter

[zaphr89]

Thanks a lot. I’ll check those videos out.

About the double yellow that had a red signal behind it, it seems like the aspects can bug out sometimes right before passing them.

One thing I was thinking about when driving the same scenario again yesterday.
Lets say you are driving under cautionary aspects and you’ve just passed a single yellow. The signal block is long so braking now would make you stop far from the potentially red signal. Your route knowledge tells you that the signal is placed in such a way that its behind a curve or the view is obstructed in some way. Would it then be safe to continue past the single yellow without braking for maybe half the block length and then brake down to a low enough speed so that when the signal/AWS magnet finally comes into view you can stop if it’s at danger? This way you’d gain some time compared to slowing down from the start, but perhaps it’s unsafe.

[brysonman46]

Lets say you are driving under cautionary aspects and you’ve just passed a single yellow. The signal block is long so braking now would make you stop far from the potentially red signal. Your route knowledge tells you that the signal is placed in such a way that its behind a curve or the view is obstructed in some way. Would it then be safe to continue past the single yellow without braking for maybe half the block length and then brake down to a low enough speed so that when the signal/AWS magnet finally comes into view you can stop if it’s at danger? This way you’d gain some time compared to slowing down from the start, but perhaps it’s unsafe.

In a situation like that, I would have thought that there would be a repeater signal before the bend/obstruction.