Why does pre-grouping seemingly generate little interest?

[TrabantDeLuxe]

Great minds think alike Andi.

[TrabantDeLuxe]

Lack of the routes is the main problem from our point of view.
We're happy to build steam locos from any era but not having anywhere to run them is the big problem. We got away with it for the Terrier because they survived so long and Stepney is so famous in preservation but that's not the case for most older engines.

You know, there's an alternative universe, where someone is answering this same thread with:

Lack of the stock is the main problem from our point of view.
We're happy to build routes from any era but not having any trains to run on them is the big problem.

A dean 4-4-0 would look just fine on the riviera in the 50's route in my opinion, until something better comes along.

[marcusboon]

A dean 4-4-0 would look just fine on the riviera in the 50's route in my opinion, until something better comes along.

It might look fine on its own, but would it look convincing in a 50’s environment? You might as well run it on the Torbay Steam Railway. The pre-grouping scene is more than just engines, it’s also coaches, wagons (lots of…), and horse-and-buggies and whatnot.

It is now possible to recreate 50’s WR steam, after more than ten years work by many gifted modellers we now have (most of) the engines, the stock, and some very well made routes. It’s different pre-WWI. It’s not a matter of a route waiting for an engine (or vice versa), it’s a matter of a route waiting for many different engines, and coaches, and wagons that will probably never appear. Modelling a pre WW1 rural branchline like the Hayling Island railway (or any other single-engine branch) might be the only practicable solution. But is that the pre-grouping scene we want to see, or are we really dreaming of the LNWR 2pm 'Corridor' climbing Shap?

Marcus

[AndiS]

I'm not into wishlist threads but it would be a worthwhile pursuit to take stock of the rolling stock build in the early 20th century that made it into WW II or so. Some classes were scraped quite soon, some found their ways into the inventory books of BR. Such a list would then be communicated to engine (and coaching stock) builders.

Of course, the pre-grouping era spans much further (earlier) but it would be a start to have all that was available after grouping in pre-grouping liveries. Quite something could be available, I cannot believe the opposite.

The same goes for routes. If you got a 50ies route, what would you change to get it into the 20ies? It depends on the operators, of course. Some cases will be harder, some easier.

With some pre-WW-I rolling stock, route converters should be motivated? I dearly miss something like a catalogue of available models (engine, stock, routes), complete with reskins. I can't believe it is all bad and forlorn. But the original question was about the why, and not about how to fix it.

[dee4141]

I agree with Mike Simpson's reply.....I think most people retain their interest towards the period in which they first became train fans. I began watching trains at Watford Junction back around 1948 and was thrilled at the LMS express trains running too and from London every few minutes - or so it seemed!. In 1950 we moved to Portsmouth and I could walk to Fratton station to see BoB's/WC, King Arthurs, Schools, N15X etc. - all exciting locos.

By the time I reached 15, railways were no longer of much interest and so they were forgotten until I came across MSTS many years later. Even now my only interest is in LMS and Southern - I don't have any GWR or LNER stock at all.

[karma99]

Lack of the routes is the main problem from our point of view.
We're happy to build steam locos from any era but not having anywhere to run them is the big problem. We got away with it for the Terrier because they survived so long and Stepney is so famous in preservation but that's not the case for most older engines.

You know, there's an alternative universe, where someone is answering this same thread with:

Lack of the stock is the main problem from our point of view.
We're happy to build routes from any era but not having any trains to run on them is the big problem.

I agree to a point. However I'd assert that a commercial route released with 1 engine begets many more engines and rolling stock. An engine released with nowhere to run and no scenarios doesn't create a route or even a return to that engine to write scenarios for it on a new route.

[metrobus]

This is an interesting topic it must be said, however I don't think it could ever hope to give a full picture on the subject, allow me to elaborate.

One thing you have to bear in mind is the train sim community is built up of a wide diversity of people, sure there are people who will go with their childhood memories, some people grew up with modern trains and have zero interest in steamers or even the BR blue era, similarly some people grew up with steam and don't care about anything past 1968! Conversely there are also people like myself who grew up with modern trains and well... Don't really care for them one bit. My own interests are wide ranging, It isn't to say I don't mind modern stuff (heck I recently did work on the Class 390), but my specialism is definitely the steam era (or DC electrics...) and I also prefer pre grouping stuff to boot and I was born almost a century too late for them . But I digress, the train sim community is diverse to say the least in what they like. There are people who sent hate mail to preservation groups because the font on their locomotives is a tiny bit wrong, or the shade of red is just a little bit too red, then there are people who don't care less what the train looks like only that it goes chuff. Indeed when I did scenarios for the G2 on Weardale and Teesdale (mainly due to the type of work featured on the route being more suitable for it), despite the fact I doubt a G2 ever even went near Darlington, very few (if anybody) complained about the fact. Me personally, I couldn't care less what route I'm driving on so long as I'm having fun, I'd happily take a Dutch Steam loco up Shap if I wanted too!

Indeed there is a very true notion of the vocal minority, and silent majority who simply don't care. I would not be surprised if the vast majority of the Train sim players are made up of people who do not frequent forums, or heck even care what type of train they are driving. Indeed in this respect pre grouping trains could actually have a surprising benefit here, I expect large portion of the population would probably be quite attracted to the pretty colours and clean lines of Victorian locos, much more so that the grimey workhorses which steam became towards the end of their lives. I mean if you show a child a picture of some grimy and leaky looking steam engine next to a wonderfully coloured bright red, yellow, blue, orange whatever coloured loco, they would more than likely pic the pretty coloured engine any day (possibly due to it looking vaguely like a certain Railway series...). So long as it goes chuff it probably doesn't matter too much about the rest

Heck It is very easy to prove the above notion of a silent majority, in this poll there have been 28 votes (at the time of writing). Now looking at steam spy there was a peak of 2262 concurrent users yesterday on Train Sim, so the respondents of this thread constitute 1.23% of maximum peak usage of train sim users yesterday... But during the last week there were around 60,000 unique users of train sim so you could say there are around 60,000 ish odd active users of train sim, and the respondents make up around 0.047% of them... but then there are around 1,000,000 people who actually own train sim... or to put it another way the respondents constitute all of 0.0028% of people who own Train sim. A truly insignificant number.

There is also a notion that well, there hasn't actually been a pre grouping route, or indeed a pre grouping loco (really), so there is really not very many ways to know how well a pre grouping product would actually do. Indeed one could also argue that if a product is done well enough that it may even manage to attract people too such an era, a kind of finding something you never knew you actually wanted! But regardless, I don't think we will ever really know the answer to this question until somebody actually goes and does it, which understandably has risks since it's chance of success is very much unknown.

Kindest regards

Edward

[Oldpufferspotter]

Pre-grouping? Let's see, that's pre 1948.
What have I got running on my light railways (Easingwold, North Sunderland, Bishop's Castle, East Kent etc)? Two Caledonian 4-4-0s (a Dunalastaire and a small driving wheeled one), a Midland "Spinner" 4-2-2 and a 4-4-0, a LBSC 2-2-2 and a Terrier 0-6-0. Oh yes, a Jinty 0-6-0T in Midland Red though it's got a big LMS number on it. I would like an 0-6-0 of some sort, but don't hold out much hopes! The GWR 2251 does alright though, but it's very Great Western in it's looks. Passenger coaches? Two LBSC four wheelers in teak/brown, and two six wheelers in Caledonian, and two in Midland colours, two LNWR bogies and a six wheeled milk cum passenger brake van, two GWR cleristory bogies, and I think that's about it. Any non corridor bogie coaches will also do, specially flat roofed ones, I've one or two of those in green. The Isle of white 10ton Goods Brake Van is just right, and I've got some Midland and old GWR wagons of pre grouping design.
Where did I get them? Here of course, all freeware, all years ago for Rail Simulator...
By the way, why do you need a prototype route to run any particular engine on, why a prototype engine to run on a particular route? I use any suitable locos and stock that I have available that will "do the job" on my little routes. In real life a Brighton Terrier was one of Colonel Stephen's favourites for his empire of light railways, but he did have to make do with any secondhand stock he could get his hands on from the big companies when they happened to be scrapping or getting rid of some at the time!

[brysonman46]

Pre-grouping? Let's see, that's pre 1948.

No, pre-1923

[davep]

I like older routes - but driving diesels on them.
I'm not a fan of steam engines, either seeing them (in real life) or driving them (in TS).
So I would certainly not buy any pre-grouping stock, but would run over a pre-grouping line.

[rkk01]

We’re our own worst enemy though... (train / rail enthusiasts, that is)

Many of the factors that determine an interest in trains also pre-determines an obsession with detail and accuracy. I like building routes (track, terrain, infrastructure) but have less time, talent or inclination for scenery. The lack of scenery doesn’t bother me greatly - driving steam trains over the Brecon Beacons is a huge challenge anyway, and the route (in my mind) is equally suited to a “City” 4-4-0, a 2251 class or an ATW 150

Photo evidence shows plenty of pre-grouping stock, lightly built GW / BR(W) stock and even an EE Type3. But what the hell, the route was known for WW1 era “Jellicoe Special” coal trains, so the 28xx will run it, as well as the Super D.

Scroll forward to WW2, and the Brecons route becomes perfect terrain for the S160 and “off the beaten track” military trains. Post nationalisation and the testing gradients become good fare for freight trials with the 7200, 8f and 9f...

So, pre-grouping - bring it on... don’t be so hidebound by historical “fact”
(I’m actually considering getting a DT Caley as a visual stand-in for an LSWR Black Motor for the LSWR / BR(S) Okehampton route

[tnleeuw01]

I'd love to see some pre-grouping, grouping, or heck any pre-war routes - and stock to match. Edwardian era, Victorian era - I'd love to have any good routes with matching stock. From any country, although preferably European (UK or continent).

I've said this before in multiple places, but since I have no talent for content creation nor time to learn it, I can't make it happen myself!

I'd love to experience the atmosphere of those times however, in a railway setting.

--Tim

[sem34090]

Some interesting opinions here!

Some general ideas I've picked up:

- As always, this thread on this forum will never represent anything approaching a reasonable proportion of the TS usership, but generally consists of those who are interested in what is actually produced, rather than just aimlessly purchasing at random.

- There seems to be an appetite for pre-grouping content, but it's not for everyone. As I said, we are now getting more and more pre-grouping locos being produced, so now its up to someone (possibly myself!) to produce a route set prior to 1923. We have the chicken... now for the egg! I will set up another thread asking what I should do for my first pre-grouping route. I need to get to grips with asset building, and any assistance with this (or maybe even people willing to build custom assets or do some reskinning, as big an ask as that is) would be greatly appreciated.

- Some people have no interest. To that I say thank you for your input! In order to get a balanced view we don't want the poll flooded by pre-grouping enthusiasts. That said, I do hope that some day ye of little faith in pre-grouping will turn and see the light!

[johnrossetti]

I like the 60s Steam / Diesel / Electric, all mixed up. BR Blue posssibly. Riviera in the 50s defo but I pretend it was the 60s !
amd would love to see more of the modern routes regressed to earier times
JR

[rkk01]

Riviera in the 50s defo but I pretend it was the 60s !

I think this sums it up - yes of course, there are a myriad of detail differences between Edwardian and 50s / 60s, but how much did the Railway itself change??? I would have thought that a “generic steam age” era would be suitable for pre-grouping / big 4 / BR Steam / green diesel (and in some areas, BR Blue).

The Cornwall of my youth was blue diesels and semaphores... the St Blazey CCFE route works as well with Prairies, Panniers and Halls as it does with blue 37s or red sheds