Atomic Systems

Our Kris let slip something on a live stream last night... I didn't comment, but someone asked what was coming next after the Stirling, requesting something Southern if I remember correctly, to which Kris announced they're doing the GWR Dean Single! I carried on watching the stream (Racing A2's up the ECML and Britannia's over the S&JR), and intended to post here, but never got the chance!

All the best,

sem34090

I have been following the discussion in this thread (and the parallel thread Victory Works) with interest, but I find it leaves me with a few questions.

I find it hard to understand why oddities and rarities in the locomotive world always seem to generate a lot of enthusiasm, while a number of very common workaday engines that would really fill a gap are only rarely mentioned. Engines like the LMS ‘Crab’ and Royal Scot, LNER J39, K3, L1 and V1/V3, or SR N would be a first day buy for me, but to be honest I fear the Turbomotive or ‘Hush-Hush’ would add little to my enjoyment of the sim.

I also have to admit that I find the recent pleas for more pre-grouping engines (or liveries) a bit puzzling, as the general lack of pre-1923 routes and stock makes an even partly convincing recreation of the pre-grouping railway scene almost impossible. I play the sim to try to recreate and enjoy (as far as possible) how railways went about their daily business in the not too distant past. A lot of hard work by many gifted people is making such time-travel possible. We now have the routes, and the engines, coaches and wagons to recreate some parts of the railway environment in the latter years of steam or the ‘blue diesel days’. Without such an environment pre-grouping engines have only a limited appeal to me. A Caledonian ‘Cardean’, however beautifully recreated, will, I fear, remain an orphan in TS2018, left to dream of Carlisle in pre-1914 days and the 2pm corridor express….

Marcus

I certainly agree that a Royal Scot, N, Crab, etc would be nice, as they were true workhorses. I suppose where the wanting for oddities and pre-grouping comes from is the fact that so many can no longer be seen or experienced. You can no longer see the W1, Turbomotive, etc... You can't even see a GWR Dean Single (properly!).

Also, some locos (Caley 123, the 812, etc...) have either been preserved or, in the case of 123, have run on BR metals. I get your point though, and this is why I'm trying to backdate several modern routes back to the 1950's, then further back to the 1930's, 1920's and 1910's. I'm also doing the same with some BR steam era routes: going back to the 1930's and earlier. I feel there is a real lack of steam-era routes generally, but there's nothing pre-1948 at all. Digital Traction are going to release an early 1920's era route with the Adams Radial in the form of the Lyme Regis branch, which looks very promising. Digital Traction, along with Matrix Trains, are also being very helpful by providing suitable stock for the locos to haul, something which (being primarily a railway modeller) I am very grateful for, as in the model railway industry this seems to never happen. Personally, rather than saying 'less pre-grouping locos', I think we should be saying 'MORE pre-grouping routes and locos, please!'

So yes, we need more workaday locos, and we definitely need an N! To be honest, other than GT3, I think most of DT and VW's output has reflected what you're saying! The same goes for Meshtools for that matter.

And don't worry... I plan to backdate Western Lines of Scotland at some stage too. Caley locos are too pretty to not have a route to run on!

All the best,

sem34090

P.S. I would like to see turbomotive, but only if it was to be included with all the standard Princess Royals! Same with Hush-Hush - only with something more widespread! Maybe someone (DTG?) could do an experimental pack, containing Hush-Hush, GT3, Turbomotive and a few others.

sem34090 wrote: And don't worry... I plan to backdate Western Lines of Scotland at some stage too. Caley locos are too pretty to not have a route to run on!

All the best,

sem34090

P.S. I would like to see turbomotive, but only if it was to be included with all the standard Princess Royals! Same with Hush-Hush - only with something more widespread! Maybe someone (DTG?) could do an experimental pack, containing Hush-Hush, GT3, Turbomotive and a few others.

The problem with that, is that the Caley loco would NOT have run on the lines of WLoS (which has a date later than 1963), which was part of the Glasgow & South Western Railway, a fierce competitor of the Caledonian Railway. The WCML over Beattock has already been regressed to the 1950s ("Steaming over Beattock"), and that WAS the main part of the Caledonian Railway. I have a number of images of the Caley at various stations along the route.
Forget the Turbomotive until its sister locos, the Princess Royals, have been built

Nick

marcusboon wrote:I have been following the discussion in this thread (and the parallel thread Victory Works) with interest, but I find it leaves me with a few questions.

I find it hard to understand why oddities and rarities in the locomotive world always seem to generate a lot of enthusiasm, while a number of very common workaday engines that would really fill a gap are only rarely mentioned. Engines like the LMS ‘Crab’ and Royal Scot, LNER J39, K3, L1 and V1/V3, or SR N would be a first day buy for me, but to be honest I fear the Turbomotive or ‘Hush-Hush’ would add little to my enjoyment of the sim.

I also have to admit that I find the recent pleas for more pre-grouping engines (or liveries) a bit puzzling, as the general lack of pre-1923 routes and stock makes an even partly convincing recreation of the pre-grouping railway scene almost impossible. I play the sim to try to recreate and enjoy (as far as possible) how railways went about their daily business in the not too distant past. A lot of hard work by many gifted people is making such time-travel possible. We now have the routes, and the engines, coaches and wagons to recreate some parts of the railway environment in the latter years of steam or the ‘blue diesel days’. Without such an environment pre-grouping engines have only a limited appeal to me. A Caledonian ‘Cardean’, however beautifully recreated, will, I fear, remain an orphan in TS2018, left to dream of Carlisle in pre-1914 days and the 2pm corridor express….

Marcus

I tend to agree with this. For me without realistic routes to run a piece of stock on I am unlikely to purchase it. Whilst it would be great to see pre-grouping models and it would be lovely to see some elegant old loco's in the sim, there are some big gaps in the everyday loco's you would have seen in the 50's and 60's. The small standard tanks and Ivatt 2MT tender and tanks spring to mind.

I welcome any new steamers of course. Unless a developer supplies a route with the loco then they are hamstrung by having to supply scenario's for commercially available routes.

Peter

marcusboon wrote:...

I also have to admit that I find the recent pleas for more pre-grouping engines (or liveries) a bit puzzling, as the general lack of pre-1923 routes and stock makes an even partly convincing recreation of the pre-grouping railway scene almost impossible. I play the sim to try to recreate and enjoy (as far as possible) how railways went about their daily business in the not too distant past. A lot of hard work by many gifted people is making such time-travel possible. We now have the routes, and the engines, coaches and wagons to recreate some parts of the railway environment in the latter years of steam or the ‘blue diesel days’. Without such an environment pre-grouping engines have only a limited appeal to me. A Caledonian ‘Cardean’, however beautifully recreated, will, I fear, remain an orphan in TS2018, left to dream of Carlisle in pre-1914 days and the 2pm corridor express….

Marcus

Just a quick thought: The lack of pre-grouping stock may withhold route builders from doing a route set in pre-1914 conditions. It's a chicken-egg story. The commercial aspect of it is that you can run an engine built in 1905 on a route set in the fifties, whereas you can't really run a locomotive built in 1950 on a 1905 route. I do fear that pre-grouping will always be somewhat of a niche interest though, many of us preferring to focus on what is familiar through either popular railway culture, or personal experience from childhood.

Ah! Please excuse my poor Scottish Railway Geography. In that case, I may need to get WCML North, then the Beattock Backdate, then backdate that to pre-grouping!

I'll leave WLoS until there's a GSWR loco... it'll take that long for me to get round to it anyway!

And that's the thing. Why do a pre-grouping route if there's no locos? Why do a pre-grouping loco if there's no routes? DT have been brave enough to do the locos: now it's up to the community to provide the routes! I'm trying to contribute to that, but there are others who are much more able.

It was the same in model railways: not so long ago there were pretty much no pre-grouping locos on the market. Then some came out, but only in later form and/or liveries. Then Bachmann took the step of introducing the Wainwright C Class (SECR) 0-6-0 in full pre-grouping livery, and we've now got, either already or coming, the SECR P, H, C, LBSCR H2, E4, LSWR M7, Beattie Well Tank, O2, 0415, GER Y14, D16, J70, LNWR G2a, L&YR 2-4-2T, GCR 8K, D11, J11, GWR City, 2301, GNR C2, and many more I can't remember! Once it was realised that these locos sold well in pre-grouping liveries, more began to emerge in them! Try finding a Bachmann SECR in full livery now for less than £200... they didn't make many because they thought they wouldn't sell!

Pre-grouping is pretty. People like pretty locos. Is there a truely authentic route for the LNWR G2? Meshtools made it anyway, and it sold. Is there an authentic LBSCR route for the class A1's? No. But VW have sold loads through SSS and Steam. There's even an authentic route for the FYN and IWC terriers (IOW network!) which is just the wrong era, but exactly the right track. The point is, people will buy locos even if no BR livery is offered (The terriers on steam don't have a BR livery - and SSS have it as an extra pack.). I wonder how many people bought the later years pack for the terrier (I did!) compared with the base pack or the steam pack? Could be an interesting comparison. Same with the N2, after the BR livery pack is released.

All the best,

sem34090

sem34090 wrote:I'll leave WLoS until there's a GSWR loco... it'll take that long for me to get round to it anyway!

Thanks for taking the time to reply. The point is that to recreate the Port Road during the early years of the last century you would not just need one G&SWR loco, but probably a few more, with the appropriate passenger coaches and goods vehicles. Otherwise you might as well run your G&SWR engine on any preserved railway. That would not be my choice, but I suspect that many would be happy to do just that.

sem34090 wrote:And that's the thing. Why do a pre-grouping route if there's no locos? Why do a pre-grouping loco if there's no routes? DT have been brave enough to do the locos: now it's up to the community to provide the routes! I'm trying to contribute to that, but there are others who are much more able .

DT are planning to do quite a few pre-grouping engines, with a strong focus on preservation/reconstructions, and I will be happy to buy all of them. But it’s an eclectic mixture (CR 123, CR 812, LSWR Radial, LNER P2, GNR Stirling Single, GCR Jersey Lillie, GWR Dukedog, CR Cardeans, LSWR B4, HR Jones Goods) that would need quite a few routes to provide a proper home for all of them.

sem34090 wrote:It was the same in model railways: not so long ago there were pretty much no pre-grouping locos on the market. Then some came out, but only in later form and/or liveries. Then Bachmann took the step of introducing the Wainwright C Class (SECR) 0-6-0 in full pre-grouping livery, and we've now got, either already or coming, the SECR P, H, C, LBSCR H2, E4, LSWR M7, Beattie Well Tank, O2, 0415, GER Y14, D16, J70, LNWR G2a, L&YR 2-4-2T, GCR 8K, D11, J11, GWR City, 2301, GNR C2, and many more I can't remember! Once it was realised that these locos sold well in pre-grouping liveries, more began to emerge in them! Try finding a Bachmann SECR in full livery now for less than £200... they didn't make many because they thought they wouldn't sell!

Pre-grouping is pretty. People like pretty locos. Is there a truely authentic route for the LNWR G2? Meshtools made it anyway, and it sold. Is there an authentic LBSCR route for the class A1's? No. But VW have sold loads through SSS and Steam. There's even an authentic route for the FYN and IWC terriers (IOW network!) which is just the wrong era, but exactly the right track. The point is, people will buy locos even if no BR livery is offered (The terriers on steam don't have a BR livery - and SSS have it as an extra pack.). I wonder how many people bought the later years pack for the terrier (I did!) compared with the base pack or the steam pack? Could be an interesting comparison. Same with the N2, after the BR livery pack is released.

No doubt pre-grouping engines would sell (and I notice that quite a few engines on Bachmann’s list had long post-1948 careers or became famous in preservation), but the commercial prospects of doing engines like the GWR 4-2-2’s that were all gone by 1915 or the Caledonian ‘Cardean’ class whose years of glory were before 1914 might be another matter.

Marcus

You definitely could get away with Caley locos on a back dated Port Road, as it was a Joint Line, with both the Caley and GSWR operating the services from Stranraer to Carlisle. Caley Jumbos were a regular feature of the line from before the grouping and with most of the GSWR classes disappearing by the mid 30s, Jumbos and 812s were drafted in to work alongside the LMS 4Fs.

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I like the idea of some pre-Grouping stock, but for me it needs to have some wider relevance than merely an attractive looking Edwardian engine...

And that normally means some well known members surviving into BR times:
CoT
Other GWR 4-4-0s
Welsh 0-6-2s
Beattie Well Tanks
Adams, Drummond and Maunsell stock on the LSWR
Etc, etc..

(Apologies for distinct regional bias...!)

Hi
my preference for steam loco's would be for steam locomotives that were built pre grouping/post grouping that lasted well into the BR steam era,that way every one interested in steam era routes should be happy.

The only thing,is remember we only have a few model makers making steam locomotives,the most prolific is Victory then DT,so we can't expect every steam locomotive ever made to be modeled,after all they have other interests outside TS2017/8,and as for coaches there is only Gordon making coaches.

I have a Ian Allen 1957 combined volume and it's surprising how many pre grouping locomotives were still in service,like a LBSCR Marsh H2 Atlantic 32424 4-4-2 Beachy Head.

I'm as guilty as others for asking for certain steam locomotives to be made which might interest me but not others..

Just like to thank all model makers for every thing you have made over the last few years
Mike
PS any one fancy doing a North British SAR/SAS 15F OR 25C

Of course, dont get me wrong. I love suggestions Its just hard to get ahold of drawings and proper reference material to do some of these models. For instance, someone mention making a LNER Hush Hush for TS. I think you can get drawings for it but they are rather expensive to buy and the other issue is finding reference photos of cabs, details and such. Then what are you going to use for sounds? I doubt anyone is still alive to have seen it to say what it sounded like and there isnt much information on it other than buying books but then again, that also costs money.
The Caledonian 812 itself has costed me over 1000 quid to make in TS because of having to buy drawings, original drawings from St. Rollox, books on CR liveries, CR rolling stock, CR rolling stock drawings, paying for a professional to go and record sounds off of the preserved CR 828. At the end of the day, it does cost a lot of money to make these models properly and some engines are harder to come by than others.

However, if there is anything you guys would like to see in TS, we would be more than happy to write it down on our list of potentials as we have two other developers in DT who fancy some of them as its my goal to make everyone happy

Kris

Ah, I'll try and backdate WLoS sooner then! We need pre-grouping routes, and I think that's a matter which is probably not disputed here. Of course, those that lasted the longest or were unique will always have more appeal, and pre-grouping types that passed to BR and then preservation will of course have the most appeal to the most people. Mike is right, there are only a few people doing steam locos, Digital Traction being the largest in people, but Victory Works making a larger impact to a larger audience thanks to their hugely advanced features and the fact they're normally published through DTG. There's also the bloke who's done the Y14 and E2, who has now done a post-grouping Hunslet Saddle Tank. Gordon's doing a great job with coaches, but good news is that DT have now reduced all of their rolling stock packs to £2.99 (The same as Gordon's) because they've now stated that all future locos will have appropiate stock included, which I think is a good move for them and everyone else.

Many Caley and North British Locos, so I'm told, lasted all the way through to 1966/67! In other areas, like the Southern, for many years elderly steam locos were kept going until electrification, so conversely this led to the older types lasting longer! I think the M7's are a good example, and the terriers pretty much all went straight from service into some form of preservation! Then there's the P class that, after the KESR closed, was bought by a local businessman to run the line as far as his private siding. I don't know when that stopped.

Mike, everyone's guilty of that! That's why I keep wanting to see an LBSCR Stroudley G Class single to modern standards! You never know, Victory Works may have a change of heart and produce the SAR locos. I believe there's a few 15F's over here, so that might increase demand (I think there's one at the Buckinghamshire railway centre, if I remember correctly), and the 25c's look pretty impressive too! Of course, if we want oddities, there's always Red Devil...

But I think you're right, and we should all thank the excellent modelmakers who bring us this stuff!

All the best

sem34090

There a 25C at Quainton Rd,they are the ones with the big condensing tender,they were built for the Cape Mainline between Bloemfontein and Beaufort West,going across the Karoo Desert,some were sheded at Springs,just outside Johannesburg,also at Kroonstad,Kimberly and De Aar.
Surprisingly the Durban area only had a few steam loco's mainly S1 and S2 shunter's for the docks and Mobeni Yard,19D(1 preserved and runs every 4th Sunday on the Umgeni Steam Railway between Kloof and Inchanga on the original Natal Mainline,I used to work at Pinetown,the next station after Kloof,this route is now closed), and for the Durban Port Shepstone Route,a few 15F and GMAM for the North Coast route to Eshowe.
The Natal Mainline between Durban and Newcastle was electrified in the 1920's,using class 1E built by Metropolitan Vickers UK between 1925-44,last ones withdrawn from service 1990,in 1955 the 5E entered service and the first batches were built by Vulcan Foundry UK,and lasted in service until 2007.

Mike

Ah, I got the 15F and 25C mixed up! I must admit I know very little on African Railway matters! I know there's a route on the steam store, so that could be a good reason for doing more locos from that part of the world.

All the best,

sem34090