Atomic Systems

749006 wrote:

rosschris10 wrote:As others have said already the differences between the stand alone 319 and 378 the later release was in fact a update so improves the train

So why not update the 319 purchased separately to the same standard as the Bed-Pan 319 and the two would be compatible.

rosschris10 wrote:ALl well and good bashing dtg here but only just recently incase you have forgotten a certain developer who released a route on there site then released the route through dtg/steam funny there is no mention of that though

I assume you refer to a route in East Anglia?
I don't see any problem - the original route works and I believe the Steam version installs to the same folder so Workshop Scenarios are ok.
And I don't see anyone who purchased the original to buy the same again from another provider.

Peter

SO you don't SE any problem with double realease of the route ok point taking

Care to voice your opinion on the 3 class 90 packs then ?? If your upset about dtg releasing 2 class 319 and class 378 packs you must surely be furious that AP released 3 seperate class 90 packs. OR is that perfectly acceptable giving it is not a dtg product but a AP product

I am really sorry for the mood of some. There is so much on offer, you got so many opportunities to spend money or not, and still people feel forced to do anything. And, even worse, instead of seeing something as a free gift to those who do not own it yet, they see it as having to pay for it twice when they have it.

All these bundles and super sales just do your head in. Don't let that happen in a way that leaves you unhappy in the end.

In my view, every engine has its value. How much can be argued for long, but basically, I consider the initial price at release as a starting point. And the price of a cinema card or two beers as the lower limit. If it is not more fun, don't buy it.

As an infrastructure freak, I find it scandalous when anyone assumes a route would be worth any less than an engine.

People find it scandalous to pay for scenarios but they are a requested commodity and in case of shortage money comes into play.
Then there are coaches and wagons, rarely valued as they should.

Now with some figures you make up for yourself, and an idea which era & country floats your boat, you jump into the sea of offerings. If there is something that you like but you don't like the price, then put it on your watch list for the next sale. If you own something similar, swap it in using RW-Tools if that fixes the issue. If they pack stuff that you already own, simply ignore it in your calculations.

I might be simplistic, but I don't see room for unrest and complaint. Myself, I bought TS2016 is some sale for under €11,-. In my book, I got it for free. If I add up all the engines alone I might conclude that everything above €1 per engine is a bad rip-off. Because back then, I got almost a dozen for €11.

However, for fear of being taken to the lunatic asylum, I abstain such thinking and simply see it as having bought Riviera in the Fifties and being gifted with 4 great steamers (and I never started the other routes). Or I paid 11 for one steamer and got the others plus the Riviera route for free.

I'm surprised nobody brought up the fact that only the standalone 319 works with its AP pack and the BedPan 319 does not support the pack due to scripting, hence why almost all people are preferring the standalone

tycoonkid9 wrote:only the standalone 319 works with its AP pack and the BedPan 319 does not support the pack due to scripting,

Is that an official reason or a guess?

gptech wrote:

tycoonkid9 wrote:only the standalone 319 works with its AP pack and the BedPan 319 does not support the pack due to scripting,

Is that an official reason or a guess?

bit of a silly question Really lol

tornados wrote:Ok Danny that may be true but it would not of hurt them to take it to waterloo would it I mean most routes are city to city depending on the size of route of course,I feel they are a bit slap dash in some of there work and are only there for the money.
A few examples from city - city or bigger areas paddington - oxford,london - brighton,liverpool - manchester,edingburgh - glasgow,london - peterborough,preston - carlisle.
I'm not sure if london - brighton came out first or portsmouth - working but theyve got clapham and victoria so why not put waterloo in.

I'm still looking forward to that route of yours.........

AndiS wrote:I am really sorry for the mood of some. There is so much on offer, you got so many opportunities to spend money or not, and still people feel forced to do anything. And, even worse, instead of seeing something as a free gift to those who do not own it yet, they see it as having to pay for it twice when they have it..

But it that not the nature of things?
If you purchase something you want you are happy - as I was with the 319.
Later you see something else you might but you need to purchase again something you already own which is where - to me - the annoyance comes.

A chap on another forum pointed out that I can buy the Hamburg S1 route even though it includes Ham-Lub and it's locos and stock with a discount for already owning Ham-Lub.
But it installs in to a different folder to the first route so you will have scenarios made for one route which might not work on the other route.

I don't feel forced, as you say, to purchase anything - just disappointed to pay for something twice if I want it.

Peter

749006 wrote:

AndiS wrote:I am really sorry for the mood of some. There is so much on offer, you got so many opportunities to spend money or not, and still people feel forced to do anything. And, even worse, instead of seeing something as a free gift to those who do not own it yet, they see it as having to pay for it twice when they have it..

But it that not the nature of things?
If you purchase something you want you are happy - as I was with the 319.
Later you see something else you might but you need to purchase again something you already own which is where - to me - the annoyance comes.

A chap on another forum pointed out that I can buy the Hamburg S1 route even though it includes Ham-Lub and it's locos and stock with a discount for already owning Ham-Lub.
But it installs in to a different folder to the first route so you will have scenarios made for one route which might not work on the other route.

I don't feel forced, as you say, to purchase anything - just disappointed to pay for something twice if I want it.

Peter

I suppose it all comes down to the collection of the individual, I just purchased MML last week mainly because I wanted to upgrade to the South London to Thameslink route on workshop, I was pleasantly surprised to see it includes the V2 EWS 66 which completes my collection for that loco as I already own the V2 Freightliner 66. It also came with the FCC 319 which didn't bother me too much, even though I own a similar item already. Because at the end of the day my personal choice to buy was for the route.


My point is, we all have a different perspective on what we want out of the packages we buy, some people don't feel cheated because they paid for the route not the trains.

749006 wrote:you will have scenarios made for one route which might not work on the other route.

They'll work OK but will probably reference portals that aren't in the S1 route around the Dammtor end of Hbf and Wandsbeker-Chausee. These instructions would need to be re-pathed, but the structure of the scenario will remain perfectly in tact.

Cheers

Bob

749006 wrote:

AndiS wrote:I am really sorry for the mood of some. There is so much on offer, you got so many opportunities to spend money or not, and still people feel forced to do anything. And, even worse, instead of seeing something as a free gift to those who do not own it yet, they see it as having to pay for it twice when they have it..

But it that not the nature of things?
If you purchase something you want you are happy - as I was with the 319.
Later you see something else you might but you need to purchase again something you already own which is where - to me - the annoyance comes.

My decision path is: Is the stuff in the offer that I do not own worth the price? If yes, then I only buy that. I do not get anything for free because I already own that but I am not forced to buy it again. If no, the price is too high, then I pass and wait for the sale that will come. Or a repackaging that appears more attractive.

In your original post you showed a whole pattern of engine alone first, then bundled with route. From this, any cautious buyer would infer that buying engines stand-alone is a bad idea in general. The downside is that you need to patiently wait for them to get bundled and may find that they do not bundle it with the route you would have desired.

It is just the same as with cloth. First they sell it at a premium. Half a year later it gets discounted.

Digital assets are seasonal goods. In particular now, all TS2017 assets come with a small print "best before you fall in love with TSW". So buying something a year ago at full price may result in a lower rate of depreciation than buying it now at half the price. It depends on when you personally will get hooked on TSW, which no one can tell. This is a major risk and people receive ample warning in the developer dairies.

Class 319 as AI comparison

MML on the left, stand alone pack on the right.



See the difference?

gptech wrote:Class 319 as AI comparison

MML on the left, stand alone pack on the right.



See the difference?

Interesting..... Is there something different about the passenger doors aswell, in the editor the MML version has blue rings around the doors but the BML version doesn't

Amazing...a forum full of eagle eyed *mistake spotters* and it's been missed.
Think about the phrase I've used throughout this wee game...

AI services

(OK...it's a game...I've used a screen shot that doesn't make it blindingly obvious)

Keep looking, in about half an hour I'll post a close up, maybe two; depends how tired I feel (on nights, so back to work tonight so it'll be before noon when I retire for the/my evening)

I can't see a raised pantograph on the right one. Which - if it is not just my eyesight - leads from one minefield to the neighbouring one: Which features matter how much? Clearly, a train that runs without a raised pantograph is wrong. (*) But by how much? And how does it translate to monetary value? There will not be two persons giving the same answer.

(*) Even worse (?) should the pantograph be lowered every time the train stops, and raised again when motion starts. I don't know the train in question and never dealt with electric AI at all.


And to clarify what I said before: I would very much prefer a scheme under which each piece of rolling stock and route is sold separately, at infinitely stable prices. Or at a known long-term discount scheme like 30% off after 2 years.

But people want packages that provide entertainment out of the box. And some will find it tiresome to put together a shopping list made of individual vehicles. These things could be greatly supported by Workshop and the likes, but people will still find it intransparent. That is why Workshop has this harsh limit of just one payware requirement (if that is still in place?).


There is another big cognitive problem hidden here. Some see their shopping as building up a collection of items with lasting value. Digital assets don't have that. They are deprecated to the life time of the base platform, or the even shorter time until they look bad by the then raised 'standard' (what standard??).

In contrast to all that, 'the game industry' aims at interactive TV. They design the plot, you are the main actor. This brings more immersion and satisfaction than just watching helplessly. But it is far from self-organised activities like building up a collection of rolling stock or creating your own route or scenario. I used the quotation mark because DTG certainly care about this active group of customers, too. It is just not too clear which product aims at whom.

...and we have a winner....

AndiS wrote:I can't see a raised pantograph on the right one.

It's a long standing issue with the original version, which eventually brings us to the point.

Peter, you've bought the AP MkII pack, despite by now probably having a plethora of MkII coaches. Obviously because the AP pack is a much improved/better version (ignoring the a,b,c,d,e,f,g,....z variations there may have been), If you apply your "this is improved, it's worth buying" thinking to the class 319 bundled, at absolutely no extra charge, with the MML route then as it's an improved model it's worthy of consideration. OK, buying a route is dearer than a stand alone loco pack and I've no argument with anybody who'd moan that the original could do with a fix but that's your option if you want an improvement.
Now you know how to download and install Workshop scenarios you don't have all the DLC for your 319 worries have vanished though, and as your class 378 'gripe' was a non-starter anyway would you agree that your *support ticket* can be closed?

tornados... your next port of call should be "Build" from the game's main menu, have a wee go at producing a route. Obviously I'm not expecting you to reproduce Waterloo this afternoon, but spend a couple of hours creating a branch line with a station and a small goods yard. get it all fully sceneried up, with working signals, drop in a couple of scenarios at least, and then pop back and tell us how easy it was. By the way, did you realise that in your dialogue with Danny you were corresponding with someone who has worked on DTGs routes?---yes, one of those "slap dash, only in it for the money guys". I do hope you really were ignorant of that fact, a comedic complaint such as yours really needs a wee twist like that to produce broad grins on people's faces.

And lastly, typhoon.... the MML 319 may not be covered by the AP soundpack, but that's not DTG's job to resolve. If you want AP sounds on the MML 319 put pressure on AP to update their product. I'd still like some corroboration regarding your statement that it's the scripting that precludes the MML version from having AP sounds applied and some clarification about who's scripting you refer to--DTG's or AP's.