Riviera Pannier - Advice or Rant...!

[rkk01]

OK, so I previously had a moan about the "Falmouth" Pannier and its poor physics (not going uphill) and had been encouraged by reports that the physics were being re-worked for the Riviera version.

RANT - It's still utterly rubbish. I get more steam from my wet socks
Managed the first career scenario ok, but the heavy stock move ended up being 10 mins late. Very frustrating.

ADVICE - The manual gives very little driving advice for the PT, especially on boiler management and steam conservation. For example, what's the best way to manage the vac brakes? The J key makes a steam sound, but does the ejector work? The brakes seem t either waste steam or leak vacuum and gradually apply...

I had hoped for a more prototypical performance, but the model and / or my driving are still utterly rubbish*

I can't see this being much use on my current hilly homebuild project

[rfletcher72]

With regard to the brakes, I run with them applied at about 6%, this stops the wastage of steam. As for brakes leaking on gradually over time, I was always led to believe this is prototypical for vacuum brakes, for steam locos in particular.

Hope this helps,

[rkk01]

For the brakes, or at least the way I've been using them..:

At 0% applied (on the f4 HUD), the vac is at 25" and shows green. I'm not able to set them at 6-9ish %, the next "detent" being at 50%. At 25" / green, the system wastes steam

At 50% you can sort of maintain whatever vac it is at, e.g., if you've bled the vac to say 12" you can maintain. That level with a 50% setting - except you can't maintain 25" as the system gradually loses vaccum and the brakes drag.

So, what would be the way to set up the brakes to an equilivent of the "running" position on older models?

[metrobus]

With the Handle over to the right, the ejector is open hence the usage of steam. There is not a running position persay, only that once moving the pump will generally hold a vacuum, ( it may not fully create 25" but 22-23" is enough to prevent the brakes dragging ) so once going about 15mph you can return the handle to the upright position which shuts the ejector and hence no steam is consumed. If your below that then well you have to deal with the steam consumption of the ejector, its only got one . There are only two states to the ejector, open ( handle to the right ), or shut ( handle upright ) and nothing in between. As for the steaming I certainly don't have issues with it, I managed the hard uphill scenario 4 minutes early and had no issues at all with steam
regards
Edward

[Electricfox]

Glad it's not just me who has had trouble with the Pannier and getting up the hill from Kingswear to Churston in the first scenario. I can make it to the other side of Greenway tunnel but then stall out just before the station.

[hertsbob]

I had hoped for a more prototypical performance, but the model and / or my driving are still utterly rubbish*

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but it's your driving.

Cheers

Bob

[bigmull]

Make sure the Dampers are OPEN as they start off Closed!

[rkk01]

With the Handle over to the right, the ejector is open hence the usage of steam. There is not a running position persay, only that once moving the pump will generally hold a vacuum, ( it may not fully create 25" but 22-23" is enough to prevent the brakes dragging ) so once going about 15mph you can return the handle to the upright position which shuts the ejector and hence no steam is consumed. If your below that then well you have to deal with the steam consumption of the ejector, its only got one . There are only two states to the ejector, open ( handle to the right ), or shut ( handle upright ) and nothing in between. As for the steaming I certainly don't have issues with it, I managed the hard uphill scenario 4 minutes early and had no issues at all with steam
regards
Edward

Thanks - that's really clear and useful, just what I was after.
(Might have missed it, but just the sort of info that the manual would benefit from)

[rkk01]

I had hoped for a more prototypical performance, but the model and / or my driving are still utterly rubbish*

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but it's your driving.

Cheers

Bob

Happy to accept "bad driving" for the Riviera pannier - hence the "Rant or Advice" heading...!
Managed the first pannier scenario ok, but packed in the second as I was running so late at Churston (didn't stall, but single figure speeds

Regarding "prototypical" performance, for the Fal pannier, I'm more sceptical about the model performance - and if the underlying physics are the same, my concerns remain the same for the Riviera one.

The Falmouth branch and Riviera hills are fairly small. I'm working on a home build route project that includes the infamous 7- mile bank between Talybont and Torpantau - over six miles at 1:38, with only a short easing to 1:60 at the Pentir Rhiw station loop. The Fal pannier will not touch this climb...

[metrobus]

While it's not really a guide or advice persay here is a video of me driving the Climbing out of kingswear scenario. It might help just to watch what I do for example what the firemass is, what I do with the injectors, regulator/reverser settings etc:

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I also wrote a brief overview of the brake for the steam forum so I will post it here as it covers some other aspects of the brake:
To swith between brake modes you use the "[" key and the "shift [ " key to cycle between them. The locomotives vacuum reservoir can be drained with the ] key. The brake modes are as follows:

1 - Vacuum braked passenger stock with direct admission valves - designed for coaching stock

2 - Vacuum braked goods stock with DA valves - designed for goods wagons in the late 1960s, has longer release and application times than passenger stock.

3 - Vacuum braked goods stock without DA valves - designed for older goods wagons fitted with vacuum brakes but not direct admission valves. - has extremeley long brake application times.

4- Unfitted/light engine with vacuum hose on the dummy coupling. - Designed for use with unfitted trains or when light engine when you for whatever reason want to use the vacuum brake ( which isn't advised as the steam brake force is reduced) to control the steam brake.

5- Unfitted/light engine with vacuum hoses off the dummy coupler - designed for light engine/unfitted trains. The vacuum hoses is taken off the dummy coupler in effect rendering the vacuum brake inoperable preventing the pump creating a vacuum which would reduce the steam brake force.

please note in the last two modes the train brakes are completley inoperable so watch out

The steam brake on the engine is applied in proportion to the difference between the reservoir side and the trainpipe side. If using brake mode 5 you will need to drain the reservoir to release the steam brake on the engine. In addition when running in this mode keep the handle in the upright position which is the release position for the steam brake. To apply the steam brake move the handle to the left ( ON position ) which applies the steam brake on the locomotive. Return it to the Neutral position to release it.

The 50% on the locomotive brake control sounds like you've put the hand brake on. ( that is applied with the / key ).

Note about the vacuum - Vacuum may not always reach 25", this is due to the ejector being unable to create a full vacuum which is quite realistic for long trains ( the engine only has one ejector built into the handle and a vacuum pump on the crosshead which is only effective when moving ). It's important to realise the brakes won't actually apply or even drag till the vacuum falls to about 23" Hg on GWR stock so don't worry if the brake isn't precisely at 25"Hg. ( bit of trivia for you, on fully fitted freight trains the minimum vacuum required to be created was only 16"Hg on normal engines and 20"Hg on GWR engines, for passenger trains it was 18" Hg normally and 22"Hg for GWR engines ).

Hope that helps

regards

Edward

[tnleeuw01]

Edward,

Thanks for all the extensive descriptions of the braking systems! This will for sure help when driving this engine!

--Tim

[tomyy]

For me the new "Driver Assist Mode" was very helpful in learning to drive the new "Riviera Panier".

To activate it I had to press "Ctrl-A" once the scenario had started.
I learned that I had the reverser way too wide open

The first time playing 04. Panier - Climbing out of Kingswear I stalled in the long climb.
With driver assist (and later also without it) I had no problem completing the scenario in time.

[rkk01]

OK, pleased to report that the physics revamp on the Riviera Pannier does indeed give a much improved performance compared to the Falmouth branch Pannier

The Riviera Pannier will haul a B-Set up the seven mile bank and can match the 1963 timetable timings, with speeds typically being sustained in the 23-29 mph range and management of the boiler pressure being achievable without having to reduce regulator and / or reverser to the extent that you stall the train.

By comparison, the Fal Pannier has been unable to complete the climb at all and the Victory Works 45xx has been consistent in achieving real world timings!

I know look forward to running the other main class of motive power on this fearsome climb - the DT 2251