JT BR Standard 5MT - OUT NOW

[sundog]

Hi Chris

Thanks for the quick reply and I see your dilemma! It's no real biggy and I only find it really noticeable when you're spectating (instead of doing your job as a crewman ) so I can certainly live with it! I'd much sooner have your effects than the stock DTG so it's a small price to pay.

Kind regards
Ken

[anthonye]

Hi Chris

Just wanted to add my thanks to you and the team for this truly excellent loco. I've always liked the levels of realism you've been trying to achieve, and it has taught me a few things even if they are limited by the constraints of the sim. What I like better is that I can actually just drive the loco and let the fireman do his job instead of leaping around the cab like something demented and doing it all myself. In fact, it's now made me reluctant to drive the other steam locos in my collection

It's also great to see you actively working with feedback on this thread and producing updates so quickly - thank you for this too.

One thing I am noticing (as with some other locos with your smoke/steam effects): When I have the regulator fairly wide open I've noticed the particle effects seem to come in a fairly long burst, then nothing at all for a few seconds, then back to the effects. Is this a limitation with the sim's code?

Kind regards
Ken

I have to totally agree with what Ken says about the service and support, with Just Trains and you as well as Victory Works, what more do we need.
I think others should take a leaf out of you book regarding support, well done to all and look forward to the next advanced loco.

Thanks very much

Anthony

[Trev123]

Yes the same here to JT and also too everyone else involved.

[Trev123]

This is the AI Collision error you get on the N to E route scenario The Scotch Explorer Part 2 Approaching Crag Mill Up Loop South.

[passedcleaner]

I've got several hobbies all drawing on my wallet so I thought I'd wait for some reviews of the 5MT before deciding whether to buy or not. I've been disappointed by a couple of recent TS purchases so I think twice before treating myself these days. However tonight I took the plunge and BOY was it worth it.

Let me elaborate - at 11.30pm I had created a scenario from Fort William to Mallaig involving a simple load-8 run calling at Glenfinnan and Arisaig. I thought 'let's have a quick run to Glenfinnan and I can carry on with the rest of the journey tomorrow evening.' It's now 1.40am and I've just pulled into Mallaig after a totally engrossing run. I can quite honestly say that is the most impressive piece of modelling and simulation I have ever experienced. The loco totally looks the part, the sounds are fantastic (particularly the clanking running sounds) and I absolutely love the driving experience. For the first time driving a steam loco I didn't feel the need to achieve a spectacular performance in order to feel satisfied. It was a joy to be ambling along at 25-30mph with the regulator just into the second valve, using the partial head out driving view (total genius to still be able to move the controls!) and watching the line winding ahead while periodically topping up fire and boiler. I arrived Glenfinnan about 15 mins early and it was actually enjoyable to sit waiting time and keeping the engine quiet! I like very much how you can keep the boiler near to max pressure without blowing off every 30 secs if you get the balance right, with the safety valves gently feathering. Ascent of Beasdale was exhilarating with full second valve and 40-45% cutoff managing to maintain 22mph which felt spot on correct. Then being able to put the final shovelful on at Arisaig and gradually run the boiler down until reaching Mallaig was realism at its best.

This for me is by far the best add on for TS and I can only say thank you to the developers for producing an absolutely mind-bogglingly good model. I thought the Clan was impressive but this felt like doing the real thing. Absolutely astonishing - I'm honestly lost for words.

[almark]

Thanks Trev,I fixed this earlier in the week when you posted originally

[Klaabu]

Great locomotive model. Would be nice to get some explanation from developers how to understand 3D firebox animation. No one word about that in the manual. As much as I understand there are two different levels - fresh coal and burning firemass level. The first is black and the second yellow. They are mixed together accordingly but it's hard to understand how to interpret this visual information. When stoking starts the black coal level immediately jumps up and then start to raise slowly. That's very strange effect. In reality fireman can't add so much coal so fast. The animation is somehow unbalanced. The black coal then turns yellow pretty fast but it's very hard to distinguish between different firemass levels. In VictoryWorks Small Prairie You can visually measure the firemass level (they have described it in comprehensive manual) but in my opinion that's very good idea to add black and fresh coal level to animation. The question is - how to measure visually firemass in 3D firebox? Another question is about injectors. In Small Prairie and GWR 48xx models Victory Works developed very realistic functionality of injectors - You have to find right balance between water and steam level when opening injector. The right sound helps to decide when injectors start to pull water into boiler (technically it's called Venturi effect). Not in any other case, You just waste water or steam without result if balance is not right enough. Like in real life. So the operation of injectors seems wrong or at least extremely simplified in JT 5MT model. And that was wrong already in 4MT and Clan. I hoped to see better operational realism this time as model has been released as Advanced. IMO realistic use of injectors is more important than preparation warm loco to driving conditions. 3D modelling is very good and three different weathering states per loco provide great variety for scenarios. So I hope JT 5MT developers team will find time to explain 1) how to interpret 3D firebox animation 2) why injectors don't function like they should work in real life (Venturi effect).

[Trev123]

Ok Thanks.

[engineerbj]

Well, I've downloaded the update, and for my two nuggets of coal, I can definitely hear the engine chuffing in the 48mph to 60mph region now, the noise could just be louder, tends to overwhelmed by all the other sounds, when in reality it should be the other way around especially if the engine is being worked hard. That being said, it's better than hearing nothing at all, and I can live with it for a while until another patch is made. As for the rest of the update, I'm very pleased with it, the new cab view certainly makes it easier to keep an eye on the vacuum brake gauge and have all the controls in easy sight and reach, well done!

Just since the question was asked, I installed the pack in the usual fashion, uninstall the old one and install the new one via the downloadable installer program, nothing out of the ordinary so far as I can tell.

The engine still performs exceptionally well, steams nicely and drives like a dream, just made easy work climbing up the grade past the viaduct not far from Dumfries heading towards Stranraer on the WLoS route with a trailing load of 740 ton parcels train when I was testing out the update, easily kept close to the speed limit with a full head of steam and a good run at the hill.

I still favor the Clan simply because it's more of a challenge to extract peak performance out of it (and I like it that way), for it's an engine that separates the enginemen from the drivers, but the 5MT earns very high marks from me and is my next-favorite right after it, makes short work of just about anything you couple up to it, and when it's cantering along everything just seems to flow in a nice rythym, highly enjoyable through and through!

[longbow]

I agree that the volume balance isn't quite right with injectors etc drowning out chuffs.

[arabianights]

Thanks Trev,I fixed this earlier in the week when you posted originally

I just played with the updated version and still had the problem, I'm afraid.

Would a save game file, which I have, be useful?

[Trev123]

No. I tried that. Yes I was playing the updated version too. Don't know whether almark meant he has fixed it but it hasn't been released yet.

[theorganist]

Decision, decisions,

I was waiting for the K1 to arrive but now I am so tempted by this, especially as there are so many routes to use it on.

Not sure I can afford two new purchases next month.

Peter

[ChrisBarnes]

Hi all,

I've not been present for the last couple of days as I've been going to job interviews and otherwise been too busy to be watching and interacting with the thread, so apologies for the late replies.

Firstly, thank you Ken, Anthony, Trev and Passedcleaner for all your very kind words, it's really appreciated.

Now, I'll try and work my way through the issues brought up since I last looked.

Great locomotive model. Would be nice to get some explanation from developers how to understand 3D firebox animation. No one word about that in the manual. As much as I understand there are two different levels - fresh coal and burning firemass level. The first is black and the second yellow. They are mixed together accordingly but it's hard to understand how to interpret this visual information. When stoking starts the black coal level immediately jumps up and then start to raise slowly. That's very strange effect. In reality fireman can't add so much coal so fast. The animation is somehow unbalanced. The black coal then turns yellow pretty fast but it's very hard to distinguish between different firemass levels. In VictoryWorks Small Prairie You can visually measure the firemass level (they have described it in comprehensive manual) but in my opinion that's very good idea to add black and fresh coal level to animation. The question is - how to measure visually firemass in 3D firebox?

There is a lot of room for improvement for the 3D firebox dynamics and modelling, and I agree that the VW model is easier and generally more useful to use as a measure of the core simulator. As you have figured out, the black coal lumps jump up to the top when you top up with coal, and slowly burns away into the main fire mass, which is the glowing orange plane. Use this plane to estimate the coal mass level. As the black coals sit on top of the plane, both will rise together when increasing the fire mass, but as the firemass decreases, the plane will descend slowly in proportion with the firemass whilst there is a two-fold effect on the coal lumps, which descends into the plane whilst also lowering with the decrease in firemass.

Another question is about injectors. In Small Prairie and GWR 48xx models Victory Works developed very realistic functionality of injectors - You have to find right balance between water and steam level when opening injector. The right sound helps to decide when injectors start to pull water into boiler (technically it's called Venturi effect). Not in any other case, You just waste water or steam without result if balance is not right enough. Like in real life. So the operation of injectors seems wrong or at least extremely simplified in JT 5MT model. And that was wrong already in 4MT and Clan. I hoped to see better operational realism this time as model has been released as Advanced. IMO realistic use of injectors is more important than preparation warm loco to driving conditions. 3D modelling is very good and three different weathering states per loco provide great variety for scenarios.

As far as I can tell, the injectors on the real life standards do not need to be fiddled about with, with careful manipulation of the steam and water trimming valves, unlike a lot of older locos. Just whack the water valve open and open the steam valve fully and it picks up quite happily, from what I have seen, no precision required. The injectors are not default, I can't remember the exact figures but you need to exceed a threshold on both steam and water valves to get them to pick up, with both steam and water valves affecting the water flow rate.
But that all said, they are undoubtably simplified from the real ones and will remain so unless some insight from operating the real BR standards comes to light. Understanding the Venturi effect is only half of the problem (and it is difficult to model accurately anyway) as more modern injectors had chokes to help regulate the optimum steam and water flow rates.

I have much more information on the operation of LNER injectors, including personal experience of operating them, so the K4 injectors might be more to your liking.

Well, I've downloaded the update, and for my two nuggets of coal, I can definitely hear the engine chuffing in the 48mph to 60mph region now, the noise could just be louder, tends to overwhelmed by all the other sounds, when in reality it should be the other way around especially if the engine is being worked hard. That being said, it's better than hearing nothing at all, and I can live with it for a while until another patch is made. As for the rest of the update, I'm very pleased with it, the new cab view certainly makes it easier to keep an eye on the vacuum brake gauge and have all the controls in easy sight and reach, well done!

Just since the question was asked, I installed the pack in the usual fashion, uninstall the old one and install the new one via the downloadable installer program, nothing out of the ordinary so far as I can tell.

The engine still performs exceptionally well, steams nicely and drives like a dream, just made easy work climbing up the grade past the viaduct not far from Dumfries heading towards Stranraer on the WLoS route with a trailing load of 740 ton parcels train when I was testing out the update, easily kept close to the speed limit with a full head of steam and a good run at the hill.

I still favor the Clan simply because it's more of a challenge to extract peak performance out of it (and I like it that way), for it's an engine that separates the enginemen from the drivers, but the 5MT earns very high marks from me and is my next-favorite right after it, makes short work of just about anything you couple up to it, and when it's cantering along everything just seems to flow in a nice rythym, highly enjoyable through and through!

Thanks for the feedback on the sounds and driving experience. I am currently trialing a new speed vs tractive effort curve to reduce the power of the 5MT as and when I get the time to test it, so I'm hoping that it will become a more challenging drive in the near future. If the results are good, then it will be rolled out with the water scoop update that was shown last weekend.

I agree that the volume balance isn't quite right with injectors etc drowning out chuffs.

Again, thank you for the valuable feedback on the sound volume levels.

Thanks Trev,I fixed this earlier in the week when you posted originally

I just played with the updated version and still had the problem, I'm afraid.

Would a save game file, which I have, be useful?

I'll leave this one to Mark.

Kind regards,
Chris

[Klaabu]

Thank You Chris for Your explanations. That helps much. The idea how the 3D firebox of the JT Standard 5MT has been implemented is impressive. I like the idea. Understand it needs some final adjustments. About injectors ... I just didn't know how 5MT-s injectors work in reality. That's why I asked my question. I'm sure there are other people who wanted to know. Sure, 5MT was much newer machine with newer and improved technology. Anyway - the model is great and enjoyable to drive.