Atomic Systems

I'm looking for some information/confirmation as to the crossover between BR Green and Blue in the late 1960's early 1970's for some scenario's I'm planning.

I'm thinking that in the early 1970's to 1973/1974 there was still a healthy mix of Blue and Green liveries on loco's and Multiple Units. By 1974, I would imagine BR Blue would been in the majority for mainline loco's with the Green being phased out.

I know some loco's (Class 20 for example) took quite a while to be repainted Blue as did many of the heritage multiple units but when did BR Blue start to take effect on multiple units?

This is a list of my proposed stock. Please correct me if my thinking is wrong
Express Services:
Class 50 - Post TOPS Blue
Class 47 - Blue
Class 45 - Blue
Semi Fast/Local Services and freight:
Class 37 - Green and Blue
Class 33 - Green and Blue
Class 31 - Green and Blue
Class 27 - Green
Class 25 - Green
Class 20 - Green and Blue
Class 08 - Green and Blue
Multiple Units:
Class 101 - Green, Blue and Blue Grey
Class 105 - Green
I'm restricting myself to Steam available only content so some of the 'heritage' diesel's and DMU's are only available in Green. (Shame we don't get the original liveries with the model's on marketplace that came with some of the original models from the original developer)

Coaching stock:
As far as I can tell, Mk.2 coaching stock and the Blue/Grey livery (Inter City) had pretty much taken over express services by 1970 to 1974.

Would Mk.1's still be the mainstay of semi fast and loco hauled local services?

Would they all be re painted in BR Blue or would there still be a good mix of old BR Blood and Custard/Maroon and the new Blue in the early 1970's?

Proposed coaching stock. Again correct me if I'm wrong
Mk.1 - Blood/Custard, Maroon and Blue/Grey
Mk.2 - Blue/Grey and Blue/Grey Inter City

Could some also explain to me the two character headcode in the box which sits between the windscreens on the Class 33 and heritage EMU's and below the windscreen on some Class 101's and 105?

Many thanks in advance

Phil

I believe that the last BR green loco was a 47 which lasted until 1977, and was so filthy that the BR green could not be seen anyway (47 367?)
Also, I think DMUs only started to appear in Blue/Grey toward the end of the 70s and then only on gangway fitted units (I may be completely wrong) although many DMUs and particularly EMUs have seemed to have appeared in BR all over blue fairly early.
The last loco to be painted in the old BR livery seems to have been a warship in 1968.

Blood/Custard Mk1s did not last long after Maroon, and then Blue/Grey was adopted and as far as I know there would not have been any by then, although there would have been a few Maroon coaches lasting until the early 70s. Local services would have had Mk1 Suburban's in all over Blue (The old 4MT pack had some in maroon) and ordinary Mk1s, and there are also a few cases of Gresley buffet coaches in blue/grey as well as a few Hawksworth coaches. It seems to have been common for catering vehicles through the steam era, and this practice seems to have occasionally happed during the early BR Blue era where a Mk1/2 catering vehicle was not available for that train formation.

Hope this info is of some use.

pjt1974 wrote:Could some also explain to me the two character headcode in the box which sits between the windscreens on the Class 33 and heritage EMU's and below the windscreen on some Class 101's and 105?

Many thanks in advance

Phil

I will do this easy one first.
With the Dmu's a Class 1 trains would show a letter A plus a designated number like A5
A class 2 train would show a B and designated code like B3
Class 101 on a Cambridge - Kings Cross service. http://peter749.piwigo.com/picture?/228 ... y/91-dmu_s
Class 104 on a Manchester - Buxton service. http://peter749.piwigo.com/picture?/228 ... y/91-dmu_s

The Class 33 locos showed a route code which was issued by the Southern Region also they very rarely worked away from the Southern until the 1980's
The route code would be displayed for the route - not the train.
Diesel routes were always a double number like 22, 33, 44, 55 because the earlier Emu's only carried 1 stencil of each number.
http://peter749.piwigo.com/picture?/101 ... ion_demu_s

More info here http://www.semgonline.com/headcodes/eheadcodes.html

Peter

749006 wrote:I will do this easy one first.
With the Dmu's a Class 1 trains would show a letter A plus a designated number like A5
A class 2 train would show a B and designated code like B3

That is a slight generalisation, the variations were considerable according to area. Some showed letter-number, some number-letter and some number-number. The meanings were explained in the Working Timetable for the area concerned. Just for example, around Glasgow 2H was a stopping passenger for Motherwell via Maxwell Park. Intercity DMUs between Glasgow and Edinburgh only showed 1, 2 or 3 for the train classification with the other indicator blank. EMUs showed two numbers (usually), one for train class and the second for route (using 1 to 9 but also D and H).

And that is just part of one WTT's details.

John

Quite a mix of traction...

Presumably scenarios for a number of routes?

pjt1974 wrote:I'm looking for some information/confirmation as to the crossover between BR Green and Blue in the late 1960's early 1970's for some scenario's I'm planning.
Many thanks in advance
Phil

There's a lot of info on t'internet young Phil, this is the wikipedia page - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_R ... #Rail_Blue

And I'll also plug my own photograph as nobody else will do it, but GWRKINGCLASS was right, 2 of the last Class 47's to remain green were 365 & 366 both allocated to Toton, here's 366 in June 1977, in South Wales, quite clean by comparison.
If you scroll down my flickr account you'll also find 40106 in green livery at BREL Crewe Works Open Day on the 6th June 1981, she was withdrawn in 1983, and is now preserved, still in her green livery.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/59849121@N08/9753482004/

Cheerz. Transport Steve.

During the transition between green and blue quite a few locos still had their battered BR green paint with new tops numbers applied such as 20154 seen here https://www.flickr.com/photos/ron_h/4808126864/ in most cases this was just temporary until the loco could be repainted but a few carried this combination but were withdrawn before being repainted.

@ Phil

Some useful transitional info. can be found on here - http://www.railblue.com/rail_blue_history.htm

Complementing faedundee2's information, many of the green TOPS numbered locos are on here - http://www.railblue.com/rail_blue_history_2.htm

This was the re-numbering information in 1973. http://www.railblue.com/pages/Related%2 ... me_v.2.htm

Cheerz. Steve.

So much valuable information in such a short period of time. Many thanks to all, you are all just a wealth of knowledge. Unfortunately, growing up on an island in the middle of the Irish Sea meant I missed the BR era almost completely

The scenario's are a good mix of traction over a number of routes. The first being on the WCML, between Glasgow and Preston, just before they flicked the switch that forced the 50's south to the Great Western.

Up north I'm going to use a mix of 50's, 47's, 37's, 31's, 27's, 25's, 20's, maybe a 45 or two, 105's and 101's. Shame the 303's are only in SPT on Steam because they might've fitted in nicely aswell. Obviously, the 33's were pretty much the domain of Southern duties so I was asking about them for maybe future reference plus you can never have enough knowledge.

I've done a good search of the web and however good the info is out there, much of the information is reported in a fashion that only true enthusiasts of the era would fully understand. The opposite with much of the Wiki information, it is presented in a more generalisation fashion. So to hear first hand from those who know and are kind enough to present the information in a way I, and probably many others, can decipher is a massive help.

I'm getting there, slowly, but loving every minute of research, learning and putting into practice in scenario's.

Again, many thanks for all the info

Carinthia wrote:

749006 wrote:I will do this easy one first.
With the Dmu's a Class 1 trains would show a letter A plus a designated number like A5
A class 2 train would show a B and designated code like B3

That is a slight generalisation, the variations were considerable according to area. Some showed letter-number, some number-letter and some number-number. The meanings were explained in the Working Timetable for the area concerned. Just for example, around Glasgow 2H was a stopping passenger for Motherwell via Maxwell Park. Intercity DMUs between Glasgow and Edinburgh only showed 1, 2 or 3 for the train classification with the other indicator blank. EMUs showed two numbers (usually), one for train class and the second for route (using 1 to 9 but also D and H).

And that is just part of one WTT's details.

John

It's more than a slight generalisation. Some areas had different local codes - like the 303/311 units in the Glasgow area but it's unlikely they would be mistaken for something else
But - outside Scotland - I don't remember seeing any other letters being used.
Same as the LT&S Units where they had 4 numbers for route/train identification.

Peter

Hi
Looking at your list all of the loco's were first painted green,Class 47 were two tone green,class 50 as they were built in 1967 they started off in all over blue.They were given Warship Names after being transferred to the Western Region

Also you are missing class 40's from your list,class 50 hauled trains were quite often double headed especially the Euston - Glasgow trains,27's didn't very often venture south of Carlisle.You've also forgotten BR Class 17 Clayton,they lasted until 1971

Mike

Good mix of stock for the forthcoming backdated Riviera (or Tarkatwocats route)

michaelhendle wrote:27's didn't very often venture south of Carlisle.

That depends on exactly when you are referring to. Over 30 of them were sent to Cricklewood when new and those that ended up based out of Leicester would work as far afield as Oxford or March. Some examples of the class were already in BR Blue before they were all based in Scotland, which didn't occur until 1970 IIRC.

michaelhendle wrote:
Also you are missing class 40's from your list,class 50 hauled trains were quite often double headed especially the Euston - Glasgow trains,27's didn't very often venture south of Carlisle.You've also forgotten BR Class 17 Clayton,they lasted until 1971

Mike

Thanks Mike, unfortunately, I'm restricting myself to Steam available products at the moment as the scenario's are intended for the Workshop however that doesn't mean I won't edit them to include the 40 and 17 later. (do we still have the Clayton apart from the original one from you know who?)

Way ahead of you on the double header Class 50's. The first scenario 'Double header to the south' is mostly finished

Are you using the RSC class 50 then, iive stopped using it due to . issues