Atomic Systems

Varney wrote:Bye then.

It's almost as if some people wait eagerly for someone to post something negative, just so they can jump on their post. It's tiring and frankly driving people away from this forum.

Well, I'd suggest the distinct lack of payware Devs on here allies itself to the thought that the negativity is what is driving a wedge and people away from the forum.

And I assure you I haven't worked hard over many many months to look for an opportunity to up and quit, it would be somewhat counter-productive.

Well Matt, it is a shame you are downing tools because of a minority of unhelpful posters, but I went through the same with my scenarios I "used" to make regularly, very rarely I do now unless I have a mad couple of days!
Don't forget though, that your decision hurts those on here who really appreciate your work and I would hazard a guess its quite a few.

Congratulations on number 4 on the way too!

davep wrote:Well. I didn't mean for my comment to cause so much fuss.

I'm NOT ripping the routes to bits.
I'm NOT knocking DTG - didn't even mention them!

I am an ex-railwayman and, in this instance, the advance speed board jumped out at me,
because, very simply, it should never have been there.

But what if (say) a WR lower quadrant signal had been put in and not noticed.
Should I say 'Wonderful route - it's perfect'?

I'm sorry if I worded it wrongly, and I always try to get my spelling, grammar and
punctuation correct as I know there are certain people on here who jump on errors
like that with glee.

And, just for the record, I certainly do not consider it a competition to be first
to point something out.

Actually, DaveP, for myself personally, your comment struck me as perhaps a bit harsh but at least it was purely factual. As such I didn't put to much into it.

But the first response to your post was just slashing DtG for having allowed this issue into the route - saying almost literally that DtG can never do any good. No fact, just negative emotion.

And that is what drains people's motivation, makes dev's leave this forum or the hobby altogether, is what contributes to people like RSDerek not coming to this forum anymore.

I know I can be a bit emotionate myself in my postings, so I probably have been guilty of bit of the same in the past.

Still doesn't excuse anyone from just slashing hard work, which is overal a great and outstanding effort, for some issues which are minor in the greater picture.

--Tim

To the critics:-

It's been suggested before, and I'll suggest it again, that IF (a) you can see a 'problem' and (b) you can constructively suggest a 'solution', THEN you might contact the developers/designers by private email to offer your help in a carefully constructed piece of prose, emphasising your overall admiration for their creation. Tactless public listing of what (you see as) faults is unkind, even insulting, to those who have laboured long and hard to put their concept before you. Even if you have paid a paltry 25 quid for it.

Harrumph!

To the creators:-

Please accept that most of us are nerds, not normally celebrated for tact, and that some of us are too young to understand the hurt that we inflict. I'd therefore suggest acquiring a large cardboard box, on which you can write the names of your more extreme persecutors. The said box (make sure it's empty!) can then be kicked up and down the hallway (repeat as desired...). Try it, it works!

KInd regards,

John M

Without constructive criticism nothing changes and improves but it's very important, as has been said, we take care how such criticisms are written. The W&T is a great piece of work and I've enjoyed the runs I've done on it so far, even though slow-speed lines are not something I'd generally go much of a bundle over. Is it perfect? No but it was never going to be. Could some things have been done better/differently? Yes but, whether a DLC is payware or freeware, there will be compromises.

We've all been around long enough to know that people who are regulars on specialist forums are atypical. We're the train nerds, the rivet counters and the brick measurers so we are more likely to be critical than the average player. We can decry those who "play trains" with the sim and those who write scenarios that use stock that never ran over a given stretch of line but they are, inevitably, the target audience. There's an ultimate test, especially in a commercial environment as DTG is:-

1. Base question: is it enjoyable?
2. Does it generate good feedback from early buyers? That leads to the main question
3. Does it generate enough downloads to cover its costs?

For freeware developers a DLC that generates few downloads is only a disappointment. For a commercial enterprise is could be disastrous. That DTG has released this is interesting because, if the scuttlebut is to be believed, past-era routes do considerably worse in sales terms than modern-day ones. That almost inevitably means that it HAS to be built in a way that appeals to the widest possible audience and if that means the addition of speed-limit warning signs that weren't present in practice then so be it. I was born in 1952, grew up when steam was the main form of traction and regard myself as an enthusiast but I did not know that such warning signs were uncommon. In the real world, footplate staff spent a long time learning routes before they could sign for them. How many of us, even the enthusiasts on here, are willing to spend hour after hour driving every inch of one stretch of line to that level? Not me, folks!

Again, I can recognise a Class 25 but wouldn't know any of the sub-classes without the aid of a reference book and definitely wouldn't be able to tell whether a particular number is correct for that model and whether the brake-pipes match. That kind of thing simply doesn't bother me unless and until it doesn't work with some of my rolling-stock because it's air and not vacuum or vice versa. If it does bother you then you're probably well able to use RW Tools or the Editor to change the number to something appropriate. I don't think it warrants heated debate.

Nobody likes criticism, however well-meant, and all the more so when it's a labour of love that's being given a going-over so think about the person whose feelings you're bruising before getting out the vitriol and remember you catch more flies with sugar than vinegar.

Keith

I think the thing to remember with weardale is, it was a labour of Love on Dereks part that became a commercial project, not the other way around. That informs its qualities, and I guess its deficits in those whom find them.

The only deficit im going to note is that its not based in the West country, but I guess that would have been a bit impractical, what will all the moors.

Looks fellas, dont let it put you off route building. I dont. Ive worked on lots of projects which have received criticism and I dont let it put me off. Keep calm and carry on is what I say.

Looks fellas, dont let it put you off route building. I dont. Ive worked on lots of projects which have received criticism and I dont let it put me off. Keep calm and carry on is what I say.

To those that love route building, this is an inspirational route and also a challenge as it raises the bar yet again .... damn, we will now have to try that bit harder

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Rockdoc2174 wrote:Again, I can recognise a Class 25 but wouldn't know any of the sub-classes without the aid of a reference book and definitely wouldn't be able to tell whether a particular number is correct for that model and whether the brake-pipes match. That kind of thing simply doesn't bother me unless and until it doesn't work with some of my rolling-stock because it's air and not vacuum or vice versa. If it does bother you then you're probably well able to use RW Tools or the Editor to change the number to something appropriate. I don't think it warrants heated debate.

Nobody likes criticism, however well-meant, and all the more so when it's a labour of love that's being given a going-over so think about the person whose feelings you're bruising before getting out the vitriol and remember you catch more flies with sugar than vinegar.

Keith

I was not expecting a heated debate over the loco's brakes.
I was just pointing out something that stands out to me as I used to work on these locos as a Train Guard many moons ago.
And changing the loco number does not work Because of the differences between sub-classes.

i agree with all of the comments about there been certain people on this forum who seem to make a habit of nit picking at DTG etc and leaving sarcastic comments to other users when there really is no need for it.

This is a forum where we should all be helping one another and not nit picking at others.

What i have noticed allot is that there is allot of anti DTG bashing when there is no need for it yet when other developers develop something the minute someone mentions a flaw/fault with there product the same people that attempt to bash DTG quickly jump to the defense of the developer and start having a go at the person who made the flaw/fault

it seems to be one rule for dtg and another for other developers on here which is not really fair.

Constructive feedback is always good as it helps developers on future products but to be quite fair with the attitude recently going to developers i don't actually blame them for wanting to down tools if there efforts are going to be slated like they have been on here recently.

What i have noticed is it is the same people who are starting arguments with users on here and i think it is about time the moderators stepped in and had a quiet word with certain people about there attitude.

Derek spent years on this latest route which to me is a masterpiece and i cannot fault it one bit. I wouldn't know where to start with making a route so i take my hat of to developers and appreciate the time spent in making something this masterful so thank you derek i for one as like many others on this thread thank you for your time effort and work going into this latest route.

I was only trying to make the general point that what is a terminal flaw in any aspect of the sim for some people sails past others without being spotted. With me, it's unlikely to be the assets that relegate a route to the store cupboard. I like to see a route with the potential for scenarios that don't have to go from one end to another. I've bought a few and wished I hadn't but that's life, isn't it? And human nature, of course. Nobody can please everyone all of the time.

Keith

Don't worry about it, we get free games on the Xbox every month and people still whine about them not being good enough. Even though they don't have to hand out free games. Trust me you could of gave away the route as it is now for nothing bundled with the 105 and people would still moan.

I had a quick drive round Bishop Auckland area yesterday after I bought the route - be a bit daft trying to do it before buying , & was blown away with the attention to detail. Look forwards to driving further when I have a bit more time. I then caught the video Matt P. did with Derek Siddall https://www.facebook.com/railsimulator?fref=ts%20wjich that includes shows some photos of the real world locations there, & used for reference. Absolutely fantastic stuff & I am really looking forwards even more to enjoying more of the route over the weekend.

Yamsi

I also think that (as an occasional builder of things) I have learnt that one has to be prepared to release a route/loco/thingy in the spirit of "this is what I made and you might have fun with it but if you don't it doesn't matter as I really built it for my own amusement and not for anyone else". It doesn't mean that one doesn't occasionally get a little niggled sometimes but most of the time it sort of frees one from worrying if others like it too.

stuart666 wrote:I think the thing to remember with weardale is, it was a labour of Love on Dereks part that became a commercial project, not the other way around. That informs its qualities, and I guess its deficits in those whom find them.

The only deficit im going to note is that its not based in the West country, but I guess that would have been a bit impractical, what will all the moors.

Looks fellas, dont let it put you off route building. I dont. Ive worked on lots of projects which have received criticism and I dont let it put me off. Keep calm and carry on is what I say.

Almost sounds as though you should be getting back to the excellent Western Rails Route!

It's the internet, sometimes things don't come across in writing as the author may have intended. Compared to a lot of online fan forums this one is generally pretty cordial. For what it's worth, I think the route is excellent.