WCML Timetables - late 90s/early 00s?

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thetrainfan
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WCML Timetables - late 90s/early 00s?

Post by thetrainfan »

Hi guys,

I'm wanting to make some scenarios for the new WCML Over Shap (and probably WCML North too) in the Virgin West Coast Loco Hauled (and beginning of 390s) era.
Trouble is that I am stuck timetable-wise. I would imagine that the service frequency is the same (if not less) than today's, however I would also like to know of any other services around then (such as Morecambe, Windermere etc.?).

So, does anyone have any timetables for the rough north-WCML area that I could use please?

If not, no worries - I'll either copy today's timetable or make up a convincing one of my own. :)


Kind regards,
Sean
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Re: WCML Timetables - late 90s/early 00s?

Post by stuart666 »

2007-2008 im afraid. But its probably better than nothing.
http://timetableworld.com/timetable_catalog.php?cat=5

Worth having a look on Amazon. Old timetables sometimes come up fairly cheap.
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Re: WCML Timetables - late 90s/early 00s?

Post by Easilyconfused »

Second hand book shops are a very useful source of the timetable books. I always keep my eye out for them when I am browsing.
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Re: WCML Timetables - late 90s/early 00s?

Post by thetrainfan »

stuart666 wrote:2007-2008 im afraid. But its probably better than nothing.
http://timetableworld.com/timetable_catalog.php?cat=5

Worth having a look on Amazon. Old timetables sometimes come up fairly cheap.
Thanks very much mate, certainly is better than what I have now. :D
Easilyconfused wrote:Second hand book shops are a very useful source of the timetable books. I always keep my eye out for them when I am browsing.
I shall certainly have a look when I am out and about, thank you! :)
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Re: WCML Timetables - late 90s/early 00s?

Post by stuart666 »

Easilyconfused wrote:Second hand book shops are a very useful source of the timetable books. I always keep my eye out for them when I am browsing.

I often find some good stuff browsing shops at preserved railways. For example, last time I visited Toddington I bought a LMR North and LMR south section appendix to the Working Timetable, and one for South Wales circa 1973. Also bought a Railtrack working timetable for Anglia (annoyingly it only covered a very small section for GEML!). So there is a lot of good stuff out there. I recently bought a 1975/76 and1976/77 BR timetable on Amazon, each for 20 quid. Sounds a lot, but they have been selling on there for 60 plus. So they might prove an investment....

NP Trainfan, hope you find something a bit closer to the 1990s. Might be worth searching under Railtrack.
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Re: WCML Timetables - late 90s/early 00s?

Post by USRailFan »

I would think that before the introduction of the Voyagers and Pendos, it'd still be pretty much the same operations and timetables as it was in the BR InterCity-era?
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Re: WCML Timetables - late 90s/early 00s?

Post by gswindale »

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Re: WCML Timetables - late 90s/early 00s?

Post by stuart666 »

USRailFan wrote:I would think that before the introduction of the Voyagers and Pendos, it'd still be pretty much the same operations and timetables as it was in the BR InterCity-era?
Ill be honest, ive not looked into the subject enough to be sure. I do know there was a lot of Government agitation around the time of privatisation to alter timetables which 'had not changed in years', which of course overlooked the point that the track didnt change and neither did peoples requirements as to when they wanted to go to work. That said I do know that the HSTs on the GWML now stop far more frequently than they did in the intercity days, and this has actually reduced the speed of the service as a consequence. A mixture of passenger demand going up, and not enough carriages to go around I suspect.

One interesting thing ive learned from Christian Wolmars 'Broken Rails' book (a first rate account of how the Rail system fell apart after privatisation, and how it took the better part of a decade to put it right), the first timetable after the sell off is regarded by timetable experts as one of the worst and inaccurate that has ever been released. Apparently they had to issue a number of ammendments over the following months, which is perhaps hard to understand if they just ported over the BR timetable and kept business as usual. I must get a copy, ive a feeling it might prove to be a collectors item. :lol:

Be good to try and find a BR timetable of the WCML circa 1994 and compare it circa 1996-97 and compare. Ive got a feeling it might prove surprisingly interesting. Ive larned a lot from getting a 1959 WR timetable. The number of overnight trains (presumably in large part empty stock movements) was amazing.
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Re: WCML Timetables - late 90s/early 00s?

Post by Stone75 »

For freight, freightmaster book will cover all your freight for a given date. They are easy to get hold of for a few quid on ebay/amazon. The early ones are a little more rare but should have no bother getting hold of 97 onwards. If you want more detail, then WTT would be the way to go which are line specific but harder to get a full colletion. Again ebay/amazon are a good place to keep an eye on.

For passenger you can usually find a full UK timetable again on ebay/amazon. They are hefty volumes and you usually pay more postage than the cost of the item in postage. Later ones are easier to get and cover the whole UK. Again if you want full info though WTT is the way to go. These are so much more detailed.

Beware though, once you start down the slippery slope of timetable collection, it can be hard to turn down just one more going cheap not really the area you want but so close so maybe I might but probably should not I wonder if she will notice no room left on the shelves but the info within will be so interesting purchase of a WTT from a time long past..... :o

Good luck !

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Re: WCML Timetables - late 90s/early 00s?

Post by spellow3010 »

At Univeristy in the Mid-1990s, I did a railway traffic flow study on the West Coast Main Line between Rugby and Stafford (The Trent Valley Railway) looking at what was served/passed through in 1847 when the line opened, what it was like in the 1930s (LMS heyday), 1960s (electrification) and then 'present day 1995'.

My evidence used a lot of working timetable data and of course, even though I was a railway enthusiast, I didn't have the timetables at my disposal to make reference. What I did was go and spend a week at the Public Records Archive in Kew (London). It operates a bit like a library where you book documents out for viewing but obviously cannot take them home with you. If you are genuinely interested and fancy an immersive experience, contact them and see what they have got.

For me, buying old working timetables just results in clutter that won't be tolerated by the wife. Try Kew and see how you get on.

We run run a lot more trains on the LNW route since December 2008 than we ever did before. A lot, lot more. I can't speak for branch line services of course, but the main running lines are far more populated (at least Rugby southwards anyway).
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Re: WCML Timetables - late 90s/early 00s?

Post by stuart666 »

spellow3010 wrote:At Univeristy in the Mid-1990s, I did a railway traffic flow study on the West Coast Main Line between Rugby and Stafford (The Trent Valley Railway) looking at what was served/passed through in 1847 when the line opened, what it was like in the 1930s (LMS heyday), 1960s (electrification) and then 'present day 1995'.

My evidence used a lot of working timetable data and of course, even though I was a railway enthusiast, I didn't have the timetables at my disposal to make reference. What I did was go and spend a week at the Public Records Archive in Kew (London). It operates a bit like a library where you book documents out for viewing but obviously cannot take them home with you. If you are genuinely interested and fancy an immersive experience, contact them and see what they have got.

For me, buying old working timetables just results in clutter that won't be tolerated by the wife. Try Kew and see how you get on.

We run run a lot more trains on the LNW route since December 2008 than we ever did before. A lot, lot more. I can't speak for branch line services of course, but the main running lines are far more populated (at least Rugby southwards anyway).

Yes I can believe that. I would assume route modernisation and speeding up of some areas is one explanation, but even on the GW its notable how hard it is for them to keep up with passenger numbers growth.

One wonders if this has contributed to the decline in railfreight. It cant leave many train paths left to deal with freight. Indeed, to cope with the electrification of the GWML, the Kemble-Swindon line is now finally being redoubled after 50 years to give freight traffic an alternate path to south wales. Going to be an interesting few years for freight bashers in South Glos....
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Re: WCML Timetables - late 90s/early 00s?

Post by spellow3010 »

Well, Network Rail have a big committment going forward to grow rail freight operations for our freight operating customers. The Office of Rail Regulator (ORR) will hold us over yet another barrel if we as custodians of the infrastructure fail to deliver.

Oddly, a lot of capacity at the south end of the WCML (south of Rugby) will become free when HS2 opens (if). Freight will once again use the direct line via Weedon (and not just on nights!).
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Re: WCML Timetables - late 90s/early 00s?

Post by stuart666 »

spellow3010 wrote:Well, Network Rail have a big committment going forward to grow rail freight operations for our freight operating customers. The Office of Rail Regulator (ORR) will hold us over yet another barrel if we as custodians of the infrastructure fail to deliver.

Oddly, a lot of capacity at the south end of the WCML (south of Rugby) will become free when HS2 opens (if). Freight will once again use the direct line via Weedon (and not just on nights!).
I wouldnt say its Network Rails fault, its just the intrinsic problem of pathing freight trains which run at 60mph between passenger trains that run at twice that speed. Even Steam trains are being derogated to run at 90mph now to alleviate the problem. Short of increasing the track mileage (or somehow increasing freight train speeds) there isnt an awful lot that can be done.

HS2 of course will be valuable, but I cant help but think some freight only mainlines might be the long term way forward. Its unlikely anyone will rebuild the Great Central at this late date, but I cant help but think an awful lot of railfreight would be taken off the ECML and WCML if it still existed. There was a group of businessmen about 10 years ago who were pushing hard for its reinstatement, so I guess you never know....
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