The good old days? long gone

[Rockdoc2174]

Producing a scenario that is interesting can be a real pain. A simple A to B with little AI doesn't take long but adding any amount of AI can lead to unexpected results. A small change to a loco to solve one problem can lead to a whole range of differences in the behaviour of the AI. I probably run right through a scenario a dozen times or more before I'm happy because I want to enjoy not only the driving but the surrounding activity. I'll do the early parts more than that because I'll judge where to add AI by driving the player's train and looking at the surroundings as I go. The longer they are the harder they are to test because changing something towards the end means running at least that far to see whether I've fixed the problem. If I haven't then it's another iteration until I'm happy or scrap the scenario.

I don't mind paying for good scenarios but the problem is that the proof of the pudding is in the eating. You have to stump up before you try and if you've bought a pup there's not much you can do about it, except not buy from that supplier again.

Keith

[1S811985]

With equal respect, placing AI is a chore, rather than difficult. Placing the AI that will interact with a player train is, I grant you, rather more involved, but the principles involved, once learnt, are simple enough to replicate and planning such interactions out properly in advance will cut the testing time considerably.

Like anything else in life, I suppose practice makes...

1S81

[growler37]

Hi I must agree with 1S811985, why anybody would pay for a scenario,beats me,but If someone can earn some income from them then good luck to them, as I said in a previous post I am pretty new to scenario creation, the problem is,and this goes for new route builders too ,they start projects that are too ambitious,start small and learn the skills first.
I think theres a lot of laziness in Trainsimming now, why learn how to do things, when with just a click I can pay for, and download someone elses efforts, I will never have a problem paying for high quality model,s the skill these people have acquired should be rewarded for there hard work,but Route building, scenarios, and reskining, are areas were, if some time and effort is put in very pleasing results will follow.
Regards and a very Merry Christmas to all.
Kev.
Riding out the storm in West Cornwall!

[1S811985]

The OP asked if the good old days of people making stuff for the sims for free had come to an end?

I can only be a little red-faced at the realisation that it's been over a year since I uploaded anything to the library here. A state of affairs that I really should set out to rectify in the new year.

1S81

[gptech]

why learn how to do things

Certainly part of the (perceived) problem, but not something that's confined to creating scenarios, routes, or reskins for a game...
why learn how to read a manual?
why learn how the simplest parts of file and folder management work in Windows?
why learn how to research things, when a copy and paste from Wikipedia seems good enough (you'd be surprised how many PhD students think that's the way to go--not my observation, the better half teaches teachers)
We've become a *lazy* species/society unfortunately, and expect things feeding to us---whether that be knowledge or add ons for games.

[briyeo1950]

Hi I must agree with 1S811985, why anybody would pay for a scenario,beats me,but If someone can earn some income from them then good luck to them, as I said in a previous post I am pretty new to scenario creation, the problem is,and this goes for new route builders too ,they start projects that are too ambitious,start small and learn the skills first.
I think theres a lot of laziness in Trainsimming now, why learn how to do things, when with just a click I can pay for, and download someone elses efforts, I will never have a problem paying for high quality model,s the skill these people have acquired should be rewarded for there hard work,but Route building, scenarios, and reskining, are areas were, if some time and effort is put in very pleasing results will follow.
Regards and a very Merry Christmas to all.
Kev.
Riding out the storm in West Cornwall!

This is the attitude that I think has resulted in the lack of freeware uploads. No argument with the comment on the loco/train models and the requirement to be prepared to pay for these. But to think that all routes, scenarios and reskins are all the same quality and easy to make is wrong. I know that some content makers go to very great lengths in research and testing, buying books, timetables, software etc. to produce some excellent work that in some cases is the best available in TS2014. Their work isn't just "some time and effort" It's a great deal of work, and a great deal of effort, and an awful lot of skill and knowledge and creative ability learnt over many years.
Most don't ask for any payment, but at least give them the respect that their work isn't something anyone could do with just a little practice.

[1S811985]

why learn how to read a manual?
why learn how the simplest parts of file and folder management work in Windows?
why learn how to research things, when a copy and paste from Wikipedia seems good enough (you'd be surprised how many PhD students think that's the way to go--not my observation, the better half teaches teachers)
We've become a *lazy* species/society unfortunately, and expect things feeding to us---whether that be knowledge or add ons for games.

An accurate generalisation!

I think there's still plenty of people who do read the manual, and do the other things too, but yes, there are plenty more who want everything spoon fed to them. Thing is, I don't think they care whether it's payware or freeware that they're getting.

Good luck to anyone who wants to try their hand at a scenario start-up. There's plenty of competition providing stuff for free though and if their wares come up short then there's plenty of forums ready to point it out. Can't see a future in it myself, except perhaps as a springboard to something else, like working with one of the asset developers.

1S81

[AndiS]

Does anybody have any hard figures? Do we have a scenario shortage or plenty of offerings? Are they good or are they boring or malfunctioning?

I know that this cannot be answered simply, but I see a huge divergence of perception build up here.

I want to know this for my own important reason: If those who say that quality scenarios are hard to build (and I lean towards this position), then that would let me maintain my hopes that RSC/DTG will finally fix this major flaw of the internal working of the AI. With proper simulation logic behind a realistic user interface, you would just specify the trains and see the headway of each of them and/or warnings for conflicts. Then you drive it once to see if you can keep the time of the player train and release it. No worries what the AI will do if you are late or early.

However, if there are plenty of good scenarios, for pay or not, that does not matter for RSC/DTG, then things are fair enough for them and the game franchise performs just fine, and I am left in the dark corner of the grumpy old men.

[david1]

I dont understand why people charge for scenarios, having read comments on here about the amout of time it takes to make just 1 scenairo i thought the sim was all about virtual trains, we all here like and have a love of trains so why would most of us not make scenarios for the fun and love of such hobby. The masses that RSC cater for just want to load up and drive so those people would not care abount making there own, but us small dedicated should be doing it for fun not for profit, scenarios are easy to make and cost nothing apart from time, but that time is spent on our passion for trains, research for WTT can be obtained from the web. half the fun is making my own scenarios and i would never pay for them, I also hardly ever even download freeware scenarios for me this takes the fun out of the sim.

Re-skins this one is a bit debatable as you need software which costs money but why should 1 person make money off somebody elses hard work, and second is it worth the money based on the orignal work, because the skin is only a very small amount of work when compared to the model, i am not a model builder but there are 6 main elements (could be wrong of course) 1 the model, 2 Cab, 3 Sound, 4 Physics, 5 skin, 6 testing. a re-skin does not usally change the model itself so should cost no more than £1 and be of the same or better quailty than the model if not it should be freeware, some skins have been sold at £4 which is a rip-off might sound harsh but what effort have they put in for £4 compared to the price of a model that is normally £12. Might be why RSC get slated for there `re-skins`.

[deltic009]

Reskins are also depending on how much work is required. Some liveries require decals or other special items to be made(my 221115 and the Turbostar collection), and just because somebody may have decided to not charge despite taking all the time to do so, this doesn't set the bar for everybody else.

[longbow]

Strikes me that many of us have reached the point where we are taking a cold, hard look at just how much cash we've spent over the years, wondering if we've really had our monies worth out every last penny of it and concluding that we could quite happily get by with spending a lot less but much more wisely in future.

That would apply to most things in life. I've maybe spent a grand on TS DLC, much of it hardly used, but that's still only 33p or so per hour of game time. Not many hobbies come cheaper.

[chrisy11]

Good scenarios are hard to write, and very time consuming to make sure they work properly . Even more so when your trying work to timetables with real traffic ect.
And as Keith says the testing can be a nightmare, i would spend hours testing my scenarios then going back making changes then running them again.
This is why i stepped away from writing scenario's for Matts addons. It just takes up too much time, plus i wanted concentrate on my route project.
And when your trying to do a set of scenarios for a said product, you have to try and come up with ways to make them interesting. Which isn't easy when at the end of the day we are talking about trains here that go from A to B to C ect.

For example when i wrote the Day in a life scenarios for Matts 7F pack i spent over a week on those. A good 30 - 40 hours maybe writing and testing , pouring over books , timetables and loco's numbers and shed codes ect.

And the same can be said for all content not just scenarios. But thats a lot of time just to give the end user a hour or so of something to do.


Chris .

[Acorncomputer]

chrisy11 said -
For example when i wrote the Day in a life scenarios for Matts 7F pack i spent over a week on those. A good 30 - 40 hours maybe writing and testing , pouring over books , timetables and loco's numbers and shed codes ect.

And the same can be said for all content not just scenarios. But thats a lot of time just to give the end user a hour or so of something to do.

One end user given an hour or so of something to do does not sound very exciting, but in practice there will probably be hundreds or thousands of end users given an hour or so of something to do which is a completely different matter

[phutton]

It took me over 2 years to produce the Coniston Branch (available in the freeware packs)
During this time I was learning the ropes and had to go over the construction several times.
The last 2 years have been spent on my new route
"Steam lines around Lancaster and Morecambe" working on a regular basis when I am not building garden railways
This route is well on its way but still considerable time still required and I am running out of my life span.

P Hutton

[220389]

Good scenarios are hard to write, and very time consuming to make sure they work properly . Even more so when your trying work to timetables with real traffic ect.
And as Keith says the testing can be a nightmare, i would spend hours testing my scenarios then going back making changes then running them again.
This is why i stepped away from writing scenario's for Matts addons. It just takes up too much time, plus i wanted concentrate on my route project.
And when your trying to do a set of scenarios for a said product, you have to try and come up with ways to make them interesting. Which isn't easy when at the end of the day we are talking about trains here that go from A to B to C ect.
Chris .

I agree with scenarios. They are hard to do and time consuming especially the testing end of things, I don't use timetables (Some might follow it, like my sleeper ones) but the testing to make sure services work is just a time sucker and annoying when something works, then doesn't work.

For payware ones, to me i don't pay much attention to them. If people want to charge for them they are free, but any i will do will be free as i can't see charging for them.

Although when i do my scenarios, although not realistic for timetables i will research what stock goes were, trains used, correct formations (pet hate when pendo Panto coaches are wrong way round/ Unless trying to do a 11car one) just all the part in the fun and doing them. For me for lack of scenarios is doing various ones that are taking a lot of time, doing other things for TS and lots more testing for Rising Storm/Red Orchestra 2 and a another project for that as well.

Chris