WCML Over Shap From Keith Ross

[ttjph]

I'll just mention here that I got my hands dirty with some loco overhauling for this one.

You'll have to wait and see what the results are though...

Welcome back... long time no see!

Waiting with breath suitably bated...

[dp123]

Fingers are firmly crossed for a 1980s timeframe on this route

As I posted ^^, the Virgin branding issues gives RSC problems with a post privatisation era setting (unless that has been resolved)

Don't forget, WCML(N) is also pre-privatisation as released by RSC. It is JT and AP that have provided the Virgin branded stock

One of the keys for a good route for me is the ability to provide a good "average" for multiple eras. WCML(N) came with pre/borderline privatisation stock, but the route itself was more post. There weren't many LED single/two aperture signals ten years ago, let alone in BR days. However, the choice of route and stock provides a good average for scenario building over multiple eras. London to Brighton is the same; all the stations may be done out in Southern green colours and with station PIS, but with a little suspension of disbelief, the route is easily useful for earlier scenarios, it hasn't changed much from BR to the present day save for the colour of the stations.

WCML Over Shap looks to me to strike this average very well, in fact it's something Keith Ross does very well as a whole. Nailing a route down to a specific era restricts the appeal of the route to the fans of said era. It's quite easy to accommodate anything post late seventies to the modern day in a single route, again with a modicum of suspension of disbelief for the minutiae (LED signal heads on WCML(N), post privatisation colours on L2B etc). Route building appears to be such a mammoth task for long mainstream routes, that an average approach is best for the wider appeal and for wider scenario building if it's a route that hasn't changed a huge amount in the last thirty years. Here is a route that can encompass BR Blue, Sectorisation, Pre-privatisation and post privatisation in a single swoop. I can easily forgive things like incorrect signals, slightly inaccurate stock, the odd siding that may have been lifted years ago in reality for the greater picture. What grates more, personally, is physics and simulation issues with stock, things that I am concentrating on whilst actually driving, and glaringly wrong things like modern FSA/FTA flats with 1960's Freightliner containers. But, these things can be corrected within the community, and have been, very well. So, I'm happy.

I can see Over Shap, and ECML to Peterborough, being winners route wise. For imaginative scenario builders like Armstrong Powerhouse, and the gifted amateurs out there, the scenario possibilities are blown wide open again.

[Kromaatikse]

My understanding is that a mixture of eras has been chosen for the layout. There are features that disappeared in the 1980s included, and other features that are strictly post-millennium are also there. It's an interesting blend.

[rkk01]

One of the keys for a good route for me is the ability to provide a good "average" for multiple eras. WCML(N) came with pre/borderline privatisation stock, but the route itself was more post. There weren't many LED single/two aperture signals ten years ago, let alone in BR days. However, the choice of route and stock provides a good average for scenario building over multiple eras. London to Brighton is the same; all the stations may be done out in Southern green colours and with station PIS, but with a little suspension of disbelief, the route is easily useful for earlier scenarios, it hasn't changed much from BR to the present day save for the colour of the stations.

WCML Over Shap looks to me to strike this average very well, in fact it's something Keith Ross does very well as a whole. Nailing a route down to a specific era restricts the appeal of the route to the fans of said era. It's quite easy to accommodate anything post late seventies to the modern day in a single route, again with a modicum of suspension of disbelief for the minutiae (LED signal heads on WCML(N), post privatisation colours on L2B etc). Route building appears to be such a mammoth task for long mainstream routes, that an average approach is best for the wider appeal and for wider scenario building if it's a route that hasn't changed a huge amount in the last thirty years. Here is a route that can encompass BR Blue, Sectorisation, Pre-privatisation and post privatisation in a single swoop. I can easily forgive things like incorrect signals, slightly inaccurate stock, the odd siding that may have been lifted years ago in reality for the greater picture. What grates more, personally, is physics and simulation issues with stock, things that I am concentrating on whilst actually driving, and glaringly wrong things like modern FSA/FTA flats with 1960's Freightliner containers. But, these things can be corrected within the community, and have been, very well. So, I'm happy.

I can see Over Shap, and ECML to Peterborough, being winners route wise. For imaginative scenario builders like Armstrong Powerhouse, and the gifted amateurs out there, the scenario possibilities are blown wide open again.

Well said - I can wholeheartedly agree with that

[theorganist]

Even in the last twenty years routes have changed. Boxes have gone, signals have changed, signage has completely altered. The lineside has also changed with more vegetation and new buildings. Using modern routes for British Rail scenarios for me has only limited appeal. AP do a great BR pack for Bristol Exeter but the lack of Bath Road depot is a major block in the suspension of belief!

When Rail Sim first came out it had 3 British routes, a steam a BR and a post privatisation! I saw this as a sign that all tastes would be catered for!

Peter

[KiwiPete]

Locked for a cooling down period.
Some of these posts are borderline attacking of other users, or appear that way.
Also heading way off topic in places.

[PeterPeddlesden]

This thread has been sanitised and all posts that fail to comply with the Code of Conduct have been removed.

This thread is no open again for posting.

Please THINK before you post and keep it ON TOPIC.

[1S811985]

One of the keys for a good route for me is the ability to provide a good "average" for multiple eras. WCML(N) came with pre/borderline privatisation stock, but the route itself was more post. There weren't many LED single/two aperture signals ten years ago, let alone in BR days. However, the choice of route and stock provides a good average for scenario building over multiple eras. London to Brighton is the same; all the stations may be done out in Southern green colours and with station PIS, but with a little suspension of disbelief, the route is easily useful for earlier scenarios, it hasn't changed much from BR to the present day save for the colour of the stations.

WCML Over Shap looks to me to strike this average very well, in fact it's something Keith Ross does very well as a whole. Nailing a route down to a specific era restricts the appeal of the route to the fans of said era. It's quite easy to accommodate anything post late seventies to the modern day in a single route, again with a modicum of suspension of disbelief for the minutiae (LED signal heads on WCML(N), post privatisation colours on L2B etc). Route building appears to be such a mammoth task for long mainstream routes, that an average approach is best for the wider appeal and for wider scenario building if it's a route that hasn't changed a huge amount in the last thirty years. Here is a route that can encompass BR Blue, Sectorisation, Pre-privatisation and post privatisation in a single swoop. I can easily forgive things like incorrect signals, slightly inaccurate stock, the odd siding that may have been lifted years ago in reality for the greater picture. What grates more, personally, is physics and simulation issues with stock, things that I am concentrating on whilst actually driving, and glaringly wrong things like modern FSA/FTA flats with 1960's Freightliner containers. But, these things can be corrected within the community, and have been, very well. So, I'm happy.

I can see Over Shap, and ECML to Peterborough, being winners route wise. For imaginative scenario builders like Armstrong Powerhouse, and the gifted amateurs out there, the scenario possibilities are blown wide open again.

Excellent post, couldn't agree more.

1S81

PS - That said...http://www.flickr.com/photos/96859208@N07/10908117135/

[jimmyshand]

One of the keys for a good route for me is the ability to provide a good "average" for multiple eras. WCML(N) came with pre/borderline privatisation stock, but the route itself was more post. There weren't many LED single/two aperture signals ten years ago, let alone in BR days. However, the choice of route and stock provides a good average for scenario building over multiple eras. London to Brighton is the same; all the stations may be done out in Southern green colours and with station PIS, but with a little suspension of disbelief, the route is easily useful for earlier scenarios, it hasn't changed much from BR to the present day save for the colour of the stations.

WCML Over Shap looks to me to strike this average very well, in fact it's something Keith Ross does very well as a whole. Nailing a route down to a specific era restricts the appeal of the route to the fans of said era. It's quite easy to accommodate anything post late seventies to the modern day in a single route, again with a modicum of suspension of disbelief for the minutiae (LED signal heads on WCML(N), post privatisation colours on L2B etc). Route building appears to be such a mammoth task for long mainstream routes, that an average approach is best for the wider appeal and for wider scenario building if it's a route that hasn't changed a huge amount in the last thirty years. Here is a route that can encompass BR Blue, Sectorisation, Pre-privatisation and post privatisation in a single swoop. I can easily forgive things like incorrect signals, slightly inaccurate stock, the odd siding that may have been lifted years ago in reality for the greater picture. What grates more, personally, is physics and simulation issues with stock, things that I am concentrating on whilst actually driving, and glaringly wrong things like modern FSA/FTA flats with 1960's Freightliner containers. But, these things can be corrected within the community, and have been, very well. So, I'm happy.

I can see Over Shap, and ECML to Peterborough, being winners route wise. For imaginative scenario builders like Armstrong Powerhouse, and the gifted amateurs out there, the scenario possibilities are blown wide open again.

Agree very much with this. Most of our railway network hasn't changed since Victorian times. Most UK services today are still running along the same routes that were laid close to the very beginning of world railway history, with the exception of ultra-modern routes like HS1.
In fact I bought a cab ride video from eBay recently which was taken from a preserved class 52 Western between Exeter and Plymouth on a railtour just a couple of years ago. I wanted to see how my local mainline really looks from the drivers perspective today. The thing that really struck me was how old most of the route looked. At times I was expecting to see a 'kettle' appear belching smoke around a bend or out of a tunnel! I found it really bizarre to think of modern Voyagers etc running daily on such an old looking network. There are some give-aways like signal types and some new infrastructure items but who really looks at those in close detail? Especially when you are zipping past at 80mph? It's just a green light on a stick to me!
In my book most routes in the UK could pass muster for any period from late steam to modern day, particularly the non-electrified routes. Those that are electrified can still pass muster for most periods from the 70's/80's to present day.

Furthermore, the case for buildings etc being out of place, well that kind of falls flat straight away. The UK building scene is changing shape at an alarming rate. You only have to look at Google Earth which was surveyed and photographed around 5 years ago to see how out of date that is already. This new WCML route sounds like it's striking the perfect balance with a clever mix of older and modern structures and scenery, with I imagine a focus on the significant scenery that people will know and expect to see along the way.

[firetrap1]

As I recall, Keith said that the main line between Carlisle and Preston was designed to have more of a 80's and 90's theme and the branches were to have an even earlier theme.

This means you can run a 390 down the main line for 2010 scenarios, an 87 down the main line for 90's scenarios with a bit of classic diesel on the side

[x5pgr]

When this route was first announced and, probably like others, I felt some degree of disappointment thinking we would just be getting Lancaster to Carlisle. Lancaster as a starting point seemed very arbitrary and operationally limiting. However once it became clear that the southern end would start at Preston suddenly a vastly increased number of possibilities came on to the agenda - Preston being the natural mid-point on the London to Glasgow route. Now that it appears that a number of branch lines are also to be included this now raises the anticipation level much higher - Lancaster to Morecombe? Oxenholme to Windermere? the various quarries around Shap? Given the expertise in route building of Mr Ross this will be a day one purchase. I am just imagining pulling into Oxenholme with the Windermere train sitting ready in the branch platform.

I was also pleased to read the most recent comments about the era. Yes we have to accept some compromises in the interests of flexibility but providing the route itself is modelled to a sufficiently high standard the immersion faction will be so good that these can easily be accepted.

My era for the WCML is BR Blue and a I spent quite a bit of time exploring the Cumbrian Fells in the 70's and early 80's. I know the Tebay to Shap section particularity well and spent many happy hours train watching at Scout Green.

Really can't wait now for the release of this one and with plenty of appropriate motive power and rolling stock to run on it already 'on shed' the potential for the scenario creators here should be massive.

The picture shows 87011 'The Black Prince' descending Shap at Scout Green with a Glasgow to Euston train on 30 May 1978 - an era when we still had proper trains with proper locomotives and hauling proper rakes of carriages!

Peter

[31160]

When this route was first announced and, probably like others, I felt some degree of disappointment thinking we would just be getting Lancaster to Carlisle. Lancaster as a starting point seemed very arbitrary and operationally limiting. However once it became clear that the southern end would start at Preston suddenly a vastly increased number of possibilities came on to the agenda - Preston being the natural mid-point on the London to Glasgow route. Now that it appears that a number of branch lines are also to be included this now raises the anticipation level much higher - Lancaster to Morecombe? Oxenholme to Windermere? the various quarries around Shap? Given the expertise in route building of Mr Ross this will be a day one purchase. I am just imagining pulling into Oxenholme with the Windermere train sitting ready in the branch platform.

I was also pleased to read the most recent comments about the era. Yes we have to accept some compromises in the interests of flexibility but providing the route itself is modelled to a sufficiently high standard the immersion faction will be so good that these can easily be accepted.

My era for the WCML is BR Blue and a I spent quite a bit of time exploring the Cumbrian Fells in the 70's and early 80's. I know the Tebay to Shap section particularity well and spent many happy hours train watching at Scout Green.


Really can't wait now for the release of this one and with plenty of appropriate motive power and rolling stock to run on it already 'on shed' the potential for the scenario creators here should be massive.

The picture shows 87011 'The Black Prince' descending Shap at Scout Green with a Glasgow to Euston train on 30 May 1978 - an era when we still had proper trains with proper locomotives and hauling proper rakes of carriages!

Peter

Nice pic Sir .. and nice Audi

[jp4712]

Great post, Peter. When I was growing up in the 1970s, we went on holiday to Grange over Sands almost every year, and every such trip would feature an afternoon at Hest Bank train spotting. I think the first thing I'll do will be to set up a trainspotting scenario and just watch the leckies roll by with plenty of freight and the regular Morecambe branch DMUs. Oh, happy days!

Paul

[jimmyshand]

A wonderful photo there Peter of the WCML in it's heyday with BR blue locomotives in action.

As a youth in the 1980's I lived next to the West Highland Line just outside Helensburgh in Scotland. My best mate had a house that actually overlooked the line and his bedroom was in the loft with a great big sky-light, a spotters paradise! I recall sleepovers at his house where we would hang out the roof window until silly o'clock waiting to watch the 37 hauled Fort William sleeper roar past with an ETHL in tow, happy days.
To get our fix of other traction than Mc37's we used to catch a blue train class 303 EMU to Glasgow Central. You could sit behind the driver on those trains and get a virtual cabride. Once at Central we would head straight to the end platforms where the WCML Intercity electrics could be found and get a taste of long range traction. Powerful locomotive classes 86 and class 87 looking majestic in BR blue with exciting names.

To a 10 yr old lad in a world that was pre-internet and before mass information became publicly available, then cities down the line like Carlisle, Preston, Crewe and London seemed as faraway and exotic as Fiji or Indonesia! I used to look at the big electric locomotives in awe that they travelled so far and wide and how I longed to be able to drive one of those things...

[rfletcher72]

I am sure the route will be top notch, regardless of era.

Thinking on, this would be a great opportunity for RSC to release a Class 185 DMU at some point. Would the existing Class 450 EMU provide a basic platform from which to start, as IIRC the 185 and the 450 are both part of the 'Desiro' family?

Just a thought