AP/Waggonz GA Class 90 coming from RSC?

[xguerra]

I wonder if in practice, AP and Waggonz will get their worth from selling the class 90 on Steam.

However, I'm usually an optimist in most things and so if the 321 ends up on Steam as well, I wouldn't mind terribly as money aside, it will still be the same fantastic product.

[phat2003uk]

There seems to be a lot of domesday speak here! This is simply a trial for a single product brought about by some uncontrollable circumstances and under no circumstance will it mean a drop of quality in future releases. I have no interest in selling sub-standard products.

[markpullinger]

I have to say that I think that this will be good for getting some airtime for AP with the Steam brigade that don't know or care that this forum is arguing about it - they only know it's coming to Steam and probably have no idea there is `another` pack out there.

[dj0393]

I wish you good luck Richard with your product going live on steam and hope you gain good rewards for all your time spent developing this top product. Personally I just hope you make enough money to keep bringing us these fantastic add-ons for Trainsim as our Trainsim world would be allot worse off without people like you. I will still be buying your products as usual but only from your website as I feel that way you get 100% of the money which you deserve and it cuts out the middle man, but I do understand you reasons for going on Steam. No doomsday from me Richard Goodluck

Dave

[lenfish]

On the bright side, 39% of all marriages end in divorce.

Regards,

Len

[Fodda]

I wish yourselves and Waggonz well with this partnership Richard.

Will I buy the Steam version? No, I already got the package from your own site and there may well be repaints into those few missing liveries coming soon to here. If not I may have to have a go at repainting myself.

After all, at the beginning of this year I did nothing to add to TS. Now I can do tunnel and bridge occlusions very well (if I do say so myself), I can place and move scenery in routes, I can make rudimentary scenarios, and now I can throw together splash-screens for TS2014 intros!

How hard can one simple loco, carriages and DVT reskin be?

[marcsharp82]

As people have said people need to make money but are we saying people worked on this full time for a year and need to make a living of it or Are we talking lets see how greedy we can be with our products? what gets me is the fact that if this partnership was announced before it went on sale on AP then people could have had the choice who to buy it from, if people wanted the workshop scenarios we could buy from steam or if you wanted loads of livery's and base pack you could buy from AP. It would be nice if AP on future packs I.e class 321 to tell your customers that it will be available from other areas so that people have the choice where to buy to suit there needs and not feel that we have to buy the same thing twice

[gptech]

....if people wanted the workshop scenarios we could buy from steam or if you wanted loads of livery's and base pack you could buy from AP...

Isn't that exactly what's being done?
Of course no matter what's put on Steam as DLC you'd still need somebody to create any scenarios featuring that stock, there's absolutely no guarantee that we'll see top quality scenarios from the workshop (we more than likely will; but how good, how many, and when is all speculation)

[phat2003uk]

....if people wanted the workshop scenarios we could buy from steam or if you wanted loads of livery's and base pack you could buy from AP...

Isn't that exactly what's being done?
Of course no matter what's put on Steam as DLC you'd still need somebody to create any scenarios featuring that stock, there's absolutely no guarantee that we'll see top quality scenarios from the workshop (we more than likely will; but how good, how many, and when is all speculation)

Exactly. Everyone who purchased the base pack obviously wanted 'loads of liveries' or they wouldn't have bought it. Is the point here that people just wanted a 90 full stop but most would have just preferred a couple of liveries and for it to be on Steam rather than a ton of liveries and via AP?

I'm starting to see why developers don't frequent these forums to give personal replies anymore. Wastes far too much time which could otherwise be spent developing so I'm off .

[lenfish]

This is simply a trial for a single product brought about by some uncontrollable circumstances............

I wonder what the uncontrollable circumstances are? Almost sounds as if AP and/or Waggonz had no choice.

Regards,

Len

[donny]

Exactly. Everyone who purchased the base pack obviously wanted 'loads of liveries' or they wouldn't have bought it. Is the point here that people just wanted a 90 full stop but most would have just preferred a couple of liveries and for it to be on Steam rather than a ton of liveries and via AP?

I think thats the pinnacle of the argument and only you guys will be in the know as to how much each method brings in in profits. I guess after that it's all down to whether you're doing it for the love of it or doing it for the money, I've always guessed the former with AP given the high standards of work. When things turn into a business standards can decline (Doesn't mean products are not good, more just not as good as they could be, (see other content creators)) due to profit margins, deadlines and time. Absolutley no one can fault the 90, its price, or the original pack content (In fact many, myself included, would have paid more) with the intense diversity that it gives. Bluntly it gives the end user great value for money. This is why people fear AP taking to steam, they are worried you will follow a similar path as RSC with it's very limited DLC releases which don't give much diversity and long term playability. Whilst I welcome the move to steam, I do hope that you will continue your policy of high quality, high value, diverse products that we have all come to love.

[SouthernElectric]

Exactly. Everyone who purchased the base pack obviously wanted 'loads of liveries' or they wouldn't have bought it. Is the point here that people just wanted a 90 full stop but most would have just preferred a couple of liveries and for it to be on Steam rather than a ton of liveries and via AP?

I think thats the pinnacle of the argument and only you guys will be in the know as to how much each method brings in in profits. I guess after that it's all down to whether you're doing it for the love of it or doing it for the money, I've always guessed the former with AP given the high standards of work. When things turn into a business standards can decline (Doesn't mean products are not good, more just not as good as they could be, (see other content creators)) due to profit margins, deadlines and time. Absolutley no one can fault the 90, its price, or the original pack content (In fact many, myself included, would have paid more) with the intense diversity that it gives. Bluntly it gives the end user great value for money. This is why people fear AP taking to steam, they are worried you will follow a similar path as RSC with it's very limited DLC releases which don't give much diversity and long term playability. Whilst I welcome the move to steam, I do hope that you will continue your policy of high quality, high value, diverse products that we have all come to love.

Thanks Donny you've articulated into words what I've been thinking these past few days since first reading this thread. I've got the AP version and will happily stick with this version.
Simon

[Fodda]

When I made all those cabviews for MSTS all those years ago it cost me an absolute fortune. I made nothing from any of them at all, yet I paid for two digital cameras, loads of railway journeys up and down the country, plus days off from work to get all over the place, and my own time (weeks and weeks of sitting in front of a PC making the damn things).

Was this ever really appreciated by the MSTS end users? Not a lot really, no. Did anyone in the community give me anything in return for the work I did? Well other than getting the routes free paid by MT that I contributed to, and my expenses for a day to the NRM no. Oh yes and the nice Mike Hambly bought me and Mrs F a bacon butty each at the SVR for doing the Class 50 and Warship there. But other than that I got about 20 comments of thanks and some goit in Japan ripping me off which when it was reported here was met with moans and whines as I'd had the ripped off stuff removed from the library! Train simmers mostly(probably myself included to an extent) are a right uncaring, unappreciative load of tightwads.

That said, there are a few here who go out of their way to help the community and my thanks go out to them.

Unfortunately the days of community spirit which dominated these forums (for a?) for the first five years or so has long since died, and we're left with people who either want a lot for nothing, or who seem to have bottomless money-pits and don't care how much they pay for whatever they get...

I can appreciate what Richard's going through here... Making train sim addons isn't going to turn anyone into a millionaire, but for some it may give them a better holiday than they would have had without.

There... That's me getting things off me chest done for about... Oooh... Let's see, five minutes?

[DavidVI]

I don't see people's problem.

AP sells activity packs featuring reskins to fit the pack. Surely this is similar but you're getting twice the amount of reskins and a fully functioning awesome Class 90 set with DVT?

I think people see RSC and just start feeling like they want to complain. You're still getting something extremely good value for money! Compared to everything else people should be greatful. AP/Waggonz doesn't owe you anything.. I always wanted it to be this way, I liked the idea of a 'booster' pack as it were to add more liveries and activities onto the Class 90..

[jimmyshand]

For those of us who have been aboard this simulator since day one back in 2007 and aboard MSTS before that, then we've seen the evolutionary changes that come about in the commercial world of this hobby and it's not always a success story from the point of view of the simple user.

From my personal perspective, I much preferred RSC when it was just Derek and a handful of others plugging away trying to make a great new simulator and genuinely listening to their customers highly demanding wishlists and honestly trying to fulfill them! The pinnacle for me was in 2011 when TS2012 hit the shelves. We finally got all the big things we'd been wishing for, super-elevation, headlights and cab-sway plus the bonus rain effects thrown in to round it all off.
Since then RSC have gone global, expanded massively and obtained almost full market dominance. Has that led to better products, quality and value for customers? No it has not. The complete opposite has happened. RSC are now seen as being arrogantly complacent in their monopoly, fleecing their customers with rolling stock DLC that are just the minimum viable product. As Donny hinted at above, when money and business becomes the overriding factor and the love of the product itself has gone, then quality and value for the user will plummet.

That's where AP were seen as being different. Such is the level of care and micro attention to detail that goes into their products that you can feel the love that exists for the products and you almost forget they are a business. That's a powerful gauntlet to hold and as others have mentioned above, I hope they don't get 'consumed by the business' by going global on Steam and becoming a DLC factory where they can make a fortune for supplying little more than the minimum viable product. If that happens then I'm sure it would be great for AP personally in the short term, but it would be disastrous for us users who have come to rely on AP's quality to give this sim longevity. It could also be a nail in the coffin for the sim longer term. I wouldn't stick around if it weren't for AP rescuing sick sounding loco's from the scrapheap!

How many of us would have stuck around and invested so heavily in DLC if it weren't for AP soundpacks completely transforming dire sounding loco's? or their scenario packs bringing the sim to life in the most realistic manner possible?