CLASS101 Strathclyde

[gptech]

I fear you are taking the tone of the thread and applying it to my post, I have actually been one of the few not in vocal and complete condemnantion of RSC.

Of course I was, and if you're not condeming RSC why use the word "liars"?---surely "incorrect" would have sufficed, and been less emotive.
Emotions have driven this thread along, the fact that a section of the community feels 'ripped off' because they aren't getting a free upgrade to the older 101 has given them a chance to 'bash' RSC for anything that can be tenuously linked to the 101. The physics are bad; couldn't you apply that to 90% of rolling stock?--the acceleration is wrong; isn't acceleration partly due to driving technique? but there have been precious few posts honestly reviewing the product. RSC have been likened to a petulant child; quite amusing to read that from the section that's collectively stamping it's feet in a tantrum and screaming "I won't do it until you do something for me".

Is £12 too expensive for a drivable item of rolling stock?, possibly not and if we were discussing a class 118 for example there'd be posts praising it's good bits, slamming the bad bits and containing something along the lines of "a few more liveries would have been nice". However, because this particular item has been perceived as 'just an old model but tarted up a bit' many feel they've been robbed---as nobody has lost the use of any item of stock and nobody is forced to purchase this one that argument doesn't sit quite right.
Have any of those claiming it's just the old one considered playing about with the files and seeing if the older liveries can be applied?, that should be a very simple task if it's true that this is just the old version with 'wet windows'. Of course the lack of a headcode box in the new model may make getting the green and whiskered skins working properly.....

Those who were around when the initial 101 was in development must surely remember that a few of the variants came about because of forum suggestions, how much of the finished product was actually done freely by Derek in his own time to make everybody happy without taking the project over-budget? Maybe this was a time when asset production was more a cottage industry, something for the users 'because we're all in this together, aren't we?'

[donny]

Gptech, I feel you are missing much of the argument regarding the old v new class 101. And it runs much deeper than just this example.

Whilst I think the class 101 was an amazing model (and the original was probably worth more), It did have its shortcomings such as the gearing not being right (Those old enough to remember 101s in mainline use will identify with this) and the screaming of the trailing vehicles and AI versions. These faults were quickly fixed by the community and it was suggested these may be incorporated into a future upgrade of the unit. Then after TS2012 RSC claimed it, along with everything else, would be upgraded (in time) with TSX effects. now, TS2013 has come along and they have effectively binned the original version (A bit of a smack in the teeth for the guy who spent his freetime creating it) with a completely new version based around the same original model but with (wait for it) added TSX effects.

Looking hollistically at the way RSC has gone with the sim, what worries me is the creation of third party content which IMO is what keeps the sim alive. In particular scenarios, their are many good scenario creators out their both payware and freeware. As someone who has shared my own work with the community for free in the past and spent a great many hours creating realistic scenarios, I fear for the future, where different users have different base content and different, incompatible, versions of the same rolling stock. Where do we go from there, do we dumb down the scenarios to one or two items of rolling stock if we want to share? Certainly it would seem RSC want to go that way in an attempt to woo the quick play gamer type.

So its not just about having a tantrum about RSC charging too much, many on here are genuinly concerned about the general direction RSC are taking the sim. I for one have decided to sit back and wait and see how things pan out, in the meantime I won't be buying anything new because I can't be guaranteed the longevity of the DLC, or if it will be supported after a year. To me thats too much to ask of a product that has no resale value.

[gptech]

Gptech, I feel you are missing much of the argument regarding the old v new class 101

No donny, the points you raise are separate to the original Vs new 101 and in the main I agree with much of what has been written about those. However, this thread is entitled "CLASS101 Strathclyde" and whilst the deeper issues can't be swept under the carpet they shouldn't take over from a discussion about the merits of this particular model (if it has any). I agree that RSC have made a right pigs ear out of handling the PR side in this instance which has certainly contributed to the confusion/ill feeling, though I don't think RSC ever stated that everything would be upgraded to incorporate the newer features, and certainly not upgraded for free.

[1S811985]

Emotions have driven this thread along, the fact that a section of the community feels 'ripped off' because they aren't getting a free upgrade to the older 101 has given them a chance to 'bash' RSC for anything that can be tenuously linked to the 101. '

Dont see this at all. I have seen reasonably argued objections to the asking price, objective criticism of the content and the expression of genuine concern about the direction being taken by RSC in regards to its DLC releases. The totally unfounded assertion that this is all down to the lack of a free upgrade is a blatant straw-man here.

Nor do I understand this oft repeated notion that anyone who dares to voice so much as a single word short of full throated, enthusiastic support for anything and everything that comes out of RSC must obviously be some sort of swivel eyed, emotionaly incontinent knocker out to bury a grudge. As arguments go that one is becoming tissue thin.

1S81

[gptech]

Yes, there are valid, well reasoned and polite posts making objective criticism in this thread (maybe I've consolidated other posts in other threads in my mind), I can't see why anyone would take offence to those but we've now had posts removed and the (possibly ill conceived or badly executed) accusation of lying, implying a pre-meditated intent to deceive for malicious means. The physics were described as "pffffff", which is less than helpful when trying to gauge a models worth. If criticism is to be made, surely it's only right to expand a little with a bit of explanation and reasoning behind the criticism.

The totally unfounded assertion that this is all down to the lack of a free upgrade is a blatant straw-man here.

Not totally

It won't do anything to the original 101 (which is what most of us are complaining about, incidentally).

Nor do I understand this oft repeated notion that anyone who dares to voice so much as a single word short of full throated, enthusiastic support for anything and everything that comes out of RSC....

Nor do I, but neither do I understand how a lack of civility, even when angry about a situation such as this be considered appropriate. By all means lets continue to voice concerns over what's been done, what the possible consequences could be etc but let's not stoop to the level of making unsubstantiated claims of wrong doing.

[smarty2]

the fact that a section of the community feels 'ripped off' because they aren't getting a free upgrade to the older 101 has given them a chance to 'bash' RSC for anything that can be tenuously linked to the 101.

Yes, I do feel ripped off, but not about getting it for free that's not been my complaint, I would be more than happy to pay a sum towards the old pack being ts2012ified, however it seems to me that the majority of purchasers of the old pack are the ones who have spent hundreds of pounds in the early days to support the sim, and that loyalty should work both ways, not updating the old pack is a flagrant disregard to those that helped the sim along to where it is today, if my boss dumps on his customers they aint comin back, and that is how this customer feels.

[gptech]

Yes, I do feel ripped off, but not about getting it for free that's not been my complaint, I would be more than happy to pay a sum towards the old pack being ts2012ified,

In that case you're not part of the group I targeted Martin, and yes, it seems a very strange decision not to offer an upgrade to the old model. The argument of 'loyalty both ways' does wear a little thin though when you consider what we have had gratis.....it could be argued that the improvements to the core game and other older assets we've all had for free do demonstrate a certain loyalty to their customers from RSC.
This little bit of accord though still adds nothing to a discussion about the Strathclyde 101---is it any good and does the model behave with a bit of realism?, is it worth 12 quid for what it is, leaving any issues regarding it's fore-runner out of it? is the pack as a whole worth the money?--will the lack of scenarios put many off?

[ihavenonamenoreallyidont]

...it could be argued that the improvements to the core game and other older assets we've all had for free do demonstrate a certain loyalty to their customers from RSC.

I don't think the notion that we've paid for the core updates through the price of DLC could be argued strongly against, though.

This whole argument is fairly circuitous.

[gptech]

I don't think the notion that we've paid for the core updates through the price of DLC could be argued strongly against, though.

This whole argument is fairly circuitous.

Fair point, one feeds the other.
On the subject of paying, and even if I do take us off topic a fair bit; if, at launch,the 101 had been priced along the lines of the new 66 would that have eliminated much of this contention?

[ihavenonamenoreallyidont]

I think it may have done. But let's not forget the standard price of the 66 is still £11.99. In RSC's favour, though, the original 66 is very long in the tooth.

As an aside, I have to say the moderators - well, what's left of them - have done a great job in not closing this thread down. Great to be able to have a proper discussion. I've been very critical of them in the past so it's nice to thank them for once.

[Squatch]

For me, not at all - what I object to (maybe "object to" is too strong, "am disappointed with" is probably better) is that they seem to have cut the old model adrift - how hard would it be to transfer the non-glowing cab and passenger view onto the old version? Even if they'd have charged £3 or something, I bet everybody who bought the original would have upgraded, instead it seems few are buying the new one and those that are don't rate it that much. There's also the issue of fragmentation of stock making scenarios harder - for instance there's now 3 versions of the 66 from the same provider, but now (I guess) under 3 separate asset folders.

If they'd have been reasonable with the 101, this week they'd have had the £3-£5 upgrade plus the £5.99 66 from me - now they haven't, and I guess I'm not the only one, and that's not a good place for a maker of digital content to be in.

[hertsbob]

I'm being told that bug fixes for the 101 are on the cards near the top of a list. Not before the Mayan apocolypse, sad to say, but there's a list of things that are on the cards, and on this list it talks about bugs and 101s.


3-2-1 you're back in the room...

[ihavenonamenoreallyidont]

Since you have inside info, can you ask when they're they going to get their bottoms into gear and finally release the hugely overdue fixes for Hatchet Hill, please?

[hertsbob]

I don't have inside information. I receive messages.

Not the same thing I'm afraid.

Cheers

Bob

[donny]

In that case you're not part of the group I targeted Martin, and yes, it seems a very strange decision not to offer an upgrade to the old model. The argument of 'loyalty both ways' does wear a little thin though when you consider what we have had gratis.....it could be argued that the improvements to the core game and other older assets we've all had for free do demonstrate a certain loyalty to their customers from RSC.
This little bit of accord though still adds nothing to a discussion about the Strathclyde 101---is it any good and does the model behave with a bit of realism?, is it worth 12 quid for what it is, leaving any issues regarding it's fore-runner out of it? is the pack as a whole worth the money?--will the lack of scenarios put many off?

I was actually really looking forward to this pack coming out and would have made extensive use of it alongside the original on WCMLNorth as well as E&G and the forthcoming port road. Despite this I personally did not see it as good value for money so will go without until it reduces in price. Having purchased the original I would effectively be paying for a reskin, rain on the windscreen and a small handfull of scenarios which might give me an hour or so's fun. After that you have to either rely on third party UGC or make your own up. Maybe more scenarios would have swayed me, or even the inclusion of 101692 - the unique Caledonian blue liveried example repainted for the Motherwell - Cumbernauld service (perfect for WCMLNorth)

Personally i'd rather see RSC putting their effort into the vast quantities of stock not yet produced. How well would a class 313/314/315/507/508 or a 319/320/321/322 type model sell, and how many seperate packs could they get away with putting the same/similar model into, AND have everybody happy. Their are ways they can have their cake and eat it but I'm afraid releasing individual liveries at £12.99 a hit is not it.

I believe they may be seeing sense though as the 66 pack appears to have been reduced in price before sale. yet another model they've completely miscalculated, I'd have happily bought this at £20-25 if it had all the main livery variants and maybe updated hoppers but as it is the pack is just far too restrictive.