Lack of pantograph routes in TS2013 is bad. Suggestions plz?

[chrisell]

Hi,

I was thinking in creating a little route and giving it for free with the addons, but then got stuck with this trouble: There is no default transversal assets for ALL users. For example:

1. You can use default TS2012 items, but new users must buy the community asset pack. Ok, it's very cheap but you are forcing to buy the item. That's not good.
2. You can use default TS2013 assets, but old users will have to buy one of the routes that maybe they don't have, need or want to buy.

I didn't realize the problem until I started thinking about it. Of course, the cheapest option is number one, but you're still forcing people to buy something. I would like to participate creating a fictional freeware route and giving it for free. I'll look into that.

Best regards,
David.-

That's EXACTLY the problem. As developers we now have no common baseline - you almost have to insist, even for a freeware route, that users have the old Euro assets pack installed. But that ONLY gives you the assets, not the tracktypes etc. So then you're stuck with this : what if your free route used the old oxford-paddington electric track type? Now your users have to either have 2012, or 2012 upgraded to 2013, or they have to buy the west coast mainline route simply to get the track type that works with your route.
It's crazy.
The only realistic answer to this is build your own route with ALL your own assets - everything from ground textures to trees, buildings, platforms, signs, signals, gantries, power cables, track lofts - everything. That's the only way you can guarantee compatibility. The cost of doing that in personal time would mean you'd end up selling it instead of giving it away and then we're back to square 1.

[enanin]

That's EXACTLY the problem. As developers we now have no common baseline - you almost have to insist, even for a freeware route, that users have the old Euro assets pack installed. But that ONLY gives you the assets, not the tracktypes etc. So then you're stuck with this : what if your free route used the old oxford-paddington electric track type? Now your users have to either have 2012, or 2012 upgraded to 2013, or they have to buy the west coast mainline route simply to get the track type that works with your route.
It's crazy.
The only realistic answer to this is build your own route with ALL your own assets - everything from ground textures to trees, buildings, platforms, signs, signals, gantries, power cables, track lofts - everything. That's the only way you can guarantee compatibility. The cost of doing that in personal time would mean you'd end up selling it instead of giving it away and then we're back to square 1.

Ah! The community asset pack includes:

-HST, Class 55 Deltic, Class 37, Class 47 and Class 166 locomotives
-DB Class 101, Class 143, Class 151, Class 294, Class V200 and BR52 locomotives
-Black 5 and 7F steam locomotives
-Assorted passenger and freight wagons
-Railway track, fences and roads
-Railway signals, bridges and tunnels
-Trees and foliage
-Industrial and commercial buildings, houses and railway buildings
-People, animals and vehicles
-European ground textures
-Sound effect domes

There's the track included, and you can include a new trackrule with electrification.

This is really a big problem for third parties devs.

[chrisell]

Good catch - I hadn't realised it included the track etc. That's good to know.

[charlie99]

I'm not sure of the point of releasing the asset pack for as payware. Surely it will just cause more trouble than it's worth for RSC?

[chrisell]

I'm not sure of the point of releasing the asset pack for as payware. Surely it will just cause more trouble than it's worth for RSC?

They've caused enough trouble as it is - this isn't making it any worse
They actually shouldn't be charging for any of this - that's a really bad business model - taking something that used to be included, removing it and making it payware.

[FoggyMorning]

I'm not sure of the point of releasing the asset pack for as payware. Surely it will just cause more trouble than it's worth for RSC?

They've caused enough trouble as it is - this isn't making it any worse
They actually shouldn't be charging for any of this - that's a really bad business model - taking something that used to be included, removing it and making it payware.

Except that isn't what has happened here. New users don't get the old routes and associated assets included in the price of the game itself. They get newer ones instead.

If new users want to drive the old routes, they are (mostly) available to buy at 40-50% the price of a newer DLC route
If they don't want to buy the old routes but fancy trying a third party route that requires the assets, they can buy the asset pack(s) instead for 40% of the price of buying one of the older routes.

Existing (i.e. pre-TS2013) users have exactly the same assets available that they always have had.

It allows a much greater degree of user-customization of content and provides a fairly nominal (I assume) revenue stream; I think it's actually a very sensible policy and I don't think most route builders will find it that onerous to deal with once the dust has settled.

[chrisell]

It allows a much greater degree of user-customization of content ........ and I don't think most route builders will find it that onerous to deal with once the dust has settled.

Consider that up to a couple of weeks ago, ALL freeware routes and scenarios used the contents of TS2012 that were provided as stock to some extent or another. For any of those routes or scenarios to work in TS2013, it now requires that new users buy extra content. RSC have a huge library of user-generated routes and scenery in a burgeoning community but they've effectively hit the 'reset' button now for anyone who's new to the game with TS2013 because nothing built prior to TS2013 will work unless older routes and assets are purchased by new users.

For developers : what do I use to build a route with now? If I build a route using assets from the NEC route, 'deluxe' users can't use it because they only have assets from Munich-Ausberg. If I build a route using assets from Munich-Ausberg, now the early-adopters and pre-order customers can't use it because they only have the NEC. If I build a route using the assets from TS2012 I have to rely on new users buying old assets before I know it will work. If I build a route using one of the common routes to both versions of the game, what happens if/when RSC ditch those next year? Building routes is time-consuming and complicated - if I couldn't guarantee that the assets I'm using will be around in 12 months time, I'm unlikely to set out on a multi-month project to build the route in the first place.

Ok fine - as developers we can all put minimum requirements on our products - "needs TS2012 european assets pack" for example, but if I were new to the game and came across all the add-ons available and all of them needed my to buy yet more product simply to make them work, I'd be extremely disappointed, probably pissed off, and likely to abandon the game completely.

[enanin]

As I see it, developers are forced to choose between this three options in order to produce DLC routes:

1. Developers will need to produce their own assets (massive job) to build ANY payware route.
2. Developers will need to launch the route on Steam and going into the partners programme in order to work with the old assets (or pretty much every asset RSC has produced)
3.- Developers will use the old assets to build, but forcing TS2013 new users to buy the european asset pack.

This feels like Apple, the whole ecosystem is very good, but you can't produce and sell things outside it. I think that's RSC's strategy with 3rd party developers.

Best regards,

David.-

[gypbrc]

This has been coming for some time hasn't it? Is this also the reason why stand-alone stock released on Steam has been removed; because there is now no common core for scenarios? I think developers are either going to have to release stock only with the proviso that buyers create their own scenarios or they are going to have to do what RSC have been doing and make expansion packs including both stock and route.

[hoopy]

This feels like Apple, the whole ecosystem is very good, but you can't produce and sell things outside it. I think that's RSC's strategy with 3rd party developers.

Whilst the recent changes have made it more difficult for independent developers, it's somewhat disingenuous to claim that that RSCs business model is like Apple's. TS2013 is not iTunes - developers are still free to produce what they want, to sell how they want, to who they want.

[enanin]

This feels like Apple, the whole ecosystem is very good, but you can't produce and sell things outside it. I think that's RSC's strategy with 3rd party developers.

Whilst the recent changes have made it more difficult for independent developers, it's somewhat disingenuous to claim that that RSCs business model is like Apple's. TS2013 is not iTunes - developers are still free to produce what they want, to sell how they want, to who they want.

Hi, I'm just basing in facts. Of course there's other DLC types like locomotives of assets that don't depend in old core assets, but this is a real problem. There's the case of creative rail releasing their East Coast Main Line Modern with the european asset pack needed to work.

TS2013 is in fact an ecosystem. It works really well, it makes money and users are growing, but this is a bad move for outside developers.

[chrisell]

Of course there's other DLC types like locomotives of assets that don't depend in old core assets, but this is a real problem.

Depends on the developer. I like to provide scenarios so players have a quick way of seeing and using my engines and trains without having to know about the scenario editor. Some players get really pissy if they buy add-on trains and don't get scenarios with them.

[theorganist]

Hi,

It is any different though from the days of TS2012 when a lot of routes required the Isle of Wight or WCML North route to run?

I don't think there have been many routes, apart from early days of Railworks and route building challange routes that only required the original default routes to run as soon as the Isle of Wight came out many freeware builders started utilising its assets.

Peter.

[hoopy]

Hi,

It is any different though from the days of TS2012 when a lot of routes required the Isle of Wight or WCML North route to run?

I don't think there have been many routes, apart from early days of Railworks and route building challange routes that only required the original default routes to run as soon as the Isle of Wight came out many freeware builders started utilising its assets.

Peter.

Yes, it is. In previous versions, all users had several routes for panto equipped locos and the OHLE were core assets. There is a fundamental difference between the optional use of add-ons and the removal of assets from the core.

[sargnickfury]

Assets on prior versions of Railworks that came stock with program should either be included or be apart of a free pack, any thing less is basicly showing zero respet for the community of third party developers who tried very hard to develop routes using assets that were available to everyone.....This "gotcha" game of removing assets needed for free routes, and then charging for them is basically a way to make money off of communities work, and or exert more control.... I swear it reminds me of how Gamesworkshop does things. That's not a compliment.