Atomic Systems

Hi!

I don't have any lists or tables of fuel consumption, but one of my friends was an engineer driving those locos for the railway museum. He assures me, that they had to fill up halfway after about 43 km. (In the good old days when the route had not been truncated to half the original length, anyway) That means, the reserves were about 20%. The rest of the route (now abandoned) was quite challenging. When I arrive at the station in the sim, 43 km from start, the water is about 80% and coal varies between 70% and 80%.

Which version of the Krauss is your friend talking about? If it's the smaller Jack version then it's probable it required a fill as the water capacity is smaller and it's less powerful.

Mick Clarke
MES/MEP

I am having problems which have been reported some time ago elsewhere, namely for me after about an hour on the Settle Carlisle route my locos sometimes stop firing ie there is no combustion. Not sure if its occasional or just some locos. Its really annoying. I don't want to go into manual firing mode. Its also not helpful if you are driving on a big route such as MEP if you run out of pressure after about an hour.

Still finding the OR braking difficult to cope with especially the vacuum brake delayed action. Seems too much so on long trains it makes precise stops almost impossible.

Mick Clarke
MEP/MES

I'm not talking about the Krauss, I'm referring to my 298.02 from the Steyrtalbahn in Austria resp. series U from the kkStB Austria.

I have driven the MEP York to KX with no problems using the supplied locomotive and have also driven Dorset 6 Waterloo to Weymouth without problems. Not sure why you have combustion problems. Perhaps a look at your eng file for one of the engines might help.

Far as vac braking goes, we do not yet have a working ejector which contributes to the delay in release.

Copperpen,

I will gladly let you see a copy of one of my locos. Unfortunately I am about to go holiday right now for about 10 days. File copied below.

Yesterday I lost pressure after about 1.5 hrs. I found I could recover by going into manual firing and increasing the firing rate. After pressure increased I went back into auto fireman. I had to do this a couple of times and then it stabilised?!? This loco was pulling a heavy coal train on Settle Carlisle. I think about 400t. It can only just get up the incline from Settle.

I have also found in activity mode that if I save and restart the pressure and firing is fine as though nothing had happened.

Is it possible to save and restart in timetable mode?

I look forward to better vac brakes.

Has the wheelslip calculation been altered? I now have difficulty on the inclines when its raining.

SIMISA@@@@@@@@@@JINX0D0t______

Wagon ( MES-90294-J
Type ( Engine )
WagonShape ( DR_BR_WD_90733.s )

Size ( 2.77125m 3.85144m 10.850880m )
CentreOfGravity ( 0.0m 0.0m 0.0m )
Centre ( 0.0206611m 0.82234m 0.160343m )
Mass ( 71.4t )
InertiaTensor ( Box(2.77125m 3.85144m 10.850880m) )
Coupling (
Type ( Bar )
Spring (
Stiffness ( 1e7N/m 1e7N/m )
Damping ( 0.2e7N/m 0.2e7N/m )
Break ( 1e9N 1e9N )
r0 ( 10cm 1e9 )
)
CouplingHasRigidConnection (1)
Velocity (0.1m/s)
CouplingUniqueType ( DR_BR_WD_90733 )
)

Coupling (
Type ( Chain )
Spring (
Stiffness ( 1e6N/m 2e6N/m )
Damping ( 1e6N/m 1e6N/m )
Break ( 1e9N 1e9N )
r0 ( 20cm 40cm )
)
CouplingHasRigidConnection (1)
Velocity (-0.1m/s)
)

Inside (
PassengerCabinFile ( DR_BR_WD_90733.s )
PassengerCabinHeadPos ( 1.5 3.0 -4.6 )
RotationLimit ( 90 180 160 )
StartDirection ( 0 0 0 )
)
Comment ( *** Friction *** )
ORTSBearingType ( Roller )

Comment (Type: Steam - Standard, Speed: 112km/h, Axles: 6, Bearings; Roller, Area: 9.9m2, Weight: 71.4t tons (metric), DrvWeight: 62 tons (metric), Drag: 1 )
ORTSDavis_A ( 7810.2 )
ORTSDavis_B ( 23.4942 )
ORTSDavis_C ( 5.692599 )

Comment ( *** Curve Resistance and SuperElevation *** )
CentreOfGravity ( 0m 2m 0m )
ORTSTrackGauge ( 4ft 8.5in )
ORTSUnbalancedSuperelevation ( 6in )
comment(ORTSRigidWheelbase ( 15.0ft 0.0in ))

BrakeEquipmentType ( "Vacuum_brake, Handbrake" )
BrakeSystemType ( "Vacuum_single_pipe" )
MaxBrakeForce ( 80kN )comment(weight*1.121)
MaxHandbrakeForce ( 21.34kN )comment(weight*0.299)
BrakeCylinderPressureForMaxBrakeBrakeForce ( 21 )

Sound ( "..\\..\\Common.Steam\\2Cylinder\\Black5engpass.sms" )

Lights ( 3
Light (
comment( Glowing firebox )
Type( 0 )
Conditions (
Headlight ( 0 )
Unit ( 0 )
)
FadeIn ( 0.5 )
FadeOut ( 0.5 )
Cycle ( 0 )
States ( 2
State (
Duration ( 0.05 )
LightColour ( eeff8800 )
Position ( 0 2.1 -4.15 )
Azimuth ( -180 -180 -180 )
Transition ( 0 )
Radius ( 1 )
Elevation ( -10 -10 -10 )
)
State (
Duration ( 0.05 )
LightColour ( ffff8855 )
Position ( 0 2.1 -4.15 )
Azimuth ( -180 -180 -180 )
Transition ( 0 )
Radius ( 1.05 )
Elevation ( -10 -10 -10 )
)
)
)

Light (
comment( Flickering Front Oil Lamp B )
Type( 0 )
Conditions (
Headlight ( 3 )
Unit ( 2 )
)
FadeIn ( 0.5 )
FadeOut ( 0.5 )
Cycle ( 0 )
States ( 2
State (
Duration ( 0.02 )
LightColour ( ff808000 )
Position ( 1.05 1.32 4.95 )
Azimuth ( 0.0 -5.0 5.0 )
Transition ( 0 )
Radius ( 0.45 )
)
State (
Duration ( 0.2 )
LightColour ( ccdddddd )
Position ( 1.05 1.32 4.95 )
Azimuth ( 0.0 -5.0 5.0 )
Transition ( 0 )
Radius ( 0.40 )
)
)
)
Light (
comment( AI Flickering Front Oil Lamp B )
Type( 0 )
Conditions (
Control(1)Service(2)Unit(2)
)
FadeIn ( 0.5 )
FadeOut ( 0.5 )
Cycle ( 0 )
States ( 2
State (
Duration ( 0.02 )
LightColour ( ff808000 )
Position ( 1.05 1.32 4.95 )
Azimuth ( 0.0 -5.0 5.0 )
Transition ( 0 )
Radius ( 0.45 )
)
State (
Duration ( 0.2 )
LightColour ( ccdddddd )
Position ( 1.05 1.32 4.95 )
Azimuth ( 0.0 -5.0 5.0 )
Transition ( 0 )
Radius ( 0.40 )
)
)
)
)
)

Engine ( MES-90294-J
Effects
(
SteamSpecialEffects
(
comment
(
the format of these little blocks is as follow:

offset.x offset.y offset.z
normal.x normal.y normal.z
width in metres

defining the offset from the shape pivot point
where steam / smoke should appear, the direction
it should go and the width of the nozzle
)

WhistleFX
(
0 3.605 -3.187
0 -0.1 1.05
0.3
)

SafetyValvesFX
(
0.174 3.675 -1.097
0 0.95 0
0.2
)
SafetyValvesFX
(
-0.174 3.675 -1.097
0 -0.8 0
0.35
)
StackFX
(
0 3.675 3.048
0 0.95 0
0.3
)
StackFX
(
0 3.675 3.048
0 0.95 0
0.25
)
StackFX
(
0 3.675 3.048
0 0.95 0
0.25
)
DrainpipeFX
(
-1.5 1.258 -3.886
-0.4 -1 -0.2
0.05
)

CylindersFX
(
-1.023 0.209 3.675
0 -0.4 1.4
0.1
)

CylindersFX
(
1.023 0.209 3.675
0 -0.4 1.4
0.1
)
)
)

Wagon ( MES-90294-J )
Comment ( *** General *** )
ORTSSteamLocomotiveType ( Simple )
Type ( Steam )
WheelRadius ( 28.25in )
NumWheels ( 5 )
ORTSDriveWheelWeight ( 62t )

Comment ( *** Cylinders *** )
NumCylinders ( 2 )
CylinderStroke ( 28in )
CylinderDiameter ( 19in )
ORTSCylinderEfficiencyRate ( 1.0 ) Comment ( Set to other value if cylinder performance to be "degraded" )
Comment ( ORTSCylinderPortOpening ( 0.12 ) )

Comment ( *** Boiler *** )
ORTSSteamBoilerType ( Superheated )
BoilerVolume ( "210*(ft^3)" )
ORTSEvaporationArea ( "1650*(ft^2)" )
ORTSSuperheatArea ( "215*(ft^2)" )
MaxBoilerPressure ( 225psi )
ORTSBoilerEfficiency( 20.0 0.934 40.0 0.867 60.0 0.8 80.0 0.734 100.0 0.667 120.0 0.6 140.00 0.534 160.0 0.467 )


Comment ( *** Fire *** )
ORTSFuelCalorific ( 13700btu/lb )
ORTSGrateArea ( "29*(ft^2)" )
SteamFiremanMaxPossibleFiringRate( 3000 )
ShovelCoalMass ( 14lb ) Comment (For manual fireman?? )
Comment( ORTSBurnRate( 0.0 100.0 9000.0 1000.0 17500.0 2000.0 24000.0 3000.0 29000.0 4000.0 33000.0 5000.0 ))

Comment ( *** Fuel *** )
MaxTenderCoalMass ( 20160lb )
MaxTenderWaterMass ( 50000lb )

Comment ( == Brake valve == )
TrainBrakesControllerMinSystemPressure( 0 )
TrainBrakesControllerMaxSystemPressure( 21 )
BrakeEquipmentType ( "Vacuum_brake, Handbrake " )
BrakeSystemType ( "Vacuum_single_pipe" )

Cabview ( WD.cvf )
HeadOut ( -1.5 3.0 -4.6 )

EngineControllers (

Regulator ( 0 1 0.035 0
NumNotches ( 0 )
)
Cutoff ( -0.75 0.75 0.02 0
NumNotches ( 0 )
)
Brake_Train ( 0 0.99 0.0475 0.65
NumNotches( 3
Notch( 0 1 TrainBrakesControllerReleaseStart )
Notch( 0.05 1 TrainBrakesControllerRunningStart )
Notch( 0.3 1 TrainBrakesControllerApplyStart )
)
)


Brake_Hand ( 0 1 0.0125 0
NumNotches( 0 )
)
FireDoor ( 0 1 0.1 0
NumNotches ( 0 )
)
Sanding( 0 1 0 )
Blower ( 0 1 0.025 0.2
NumNotches ( 0 )
)
HeatingTap ( 0 1 0.025 0
NumNotches ( 0 )
)
Shovel ( 0 1 0.1 0
NumNotches ( 0 )
)
DampersFront ( 0 1 0.1 1
NumNotches ( 0 )
)
DampersBack ( 0 1 0.1 0
NumNotches ( 0 )
)
Injector1Steam ( 0 1 0 )
Injector2Steam ( 0 1 0 )
Injector1Water ( 0 1 0.1 0
NumNotches ( 0 )
)
Injector2Water ( 0 1 0.1 0
NumNotches ( 0 )
)
CylinderCocks ( 0 1 1 )
Whistle ( 0 1 0 )
WaterScoop ( 0 1 0 )
SmallEjectorOrCompressor( 0 1 1 )
Headlights( 0 1 0 )
)

Sound ( "..\\..\\Common.Steam\\2Cylinder\\Black5cab.sms" )
Name ( "MES-90294-J WD" )
Description (
""

)
EngineOperatingProcedures (
"To move forward\n"+
"1. Press the W key several times to move the Reverser to full Forward.\n"+
"2. Press the ; (SEMICOLON) key to release the train brakes.\n"+
"3. Press the D key to increase the Regulator setting.\n"+
"4. As you accelerate, press the S key to slowly reduce the Reverser setting, then adjust the Regulator to maintain the desired speed.\n\n"+
"To slow the train\n"+
"1. Press the A key to move the Regulator to a lower setting.\n"+
"2. Use the brakes to further reduce speed if desired.\n\n"+
"To apply the train brakes\n"+
"1. Press the ' (APOSTROPHE) key to apply the train brakes.\n"+
"2. To hold the brakes at their current setting, lower the brake lever until it's in its middle (Neutral) position, by pressing the ; (SEMICOLON) key.\n\n"+
"To release the train brakes\n"+
"1. Press the ; (SEMICOLON) key to release the train brakes.\n"+
"2. When the brakes are released, raise the brake lever until it's in its middle (Neutral) position, by pressing the ' (APOSTROPHE) key.\n\n"+
"To back up\n"+
"1. Bring your train to a full stop.\n"+
"2. Press the S key several times to move the Reverser to the full Reverse position.\n"+
"4. Press the ; (SEMICOLON) key to release the brakes.\n"+
"5. Slowly advance the regulator (D key).\n\n"+
"To load and unload passengers\n"+
"1. Stop at a station.\n"+
"2. Press the ENTER key.\n"+
"3. Wait for the \"permission to depart\" whistle.\n"+
"TIP: Use the Next Station driving aid (F10) to monitor loading and unloading.\n\n"+
"To couple to a car or locomotive\n"+
"1. Coast into the unit at a very slow speed, about 2 mph.\n"+
"TIP: To use the Coupling view, press the 6 key.\n"+
"2. Press F9 to open the Train Operations window.\n"+
"3. If the icon for the unit you coupled to is red, the handbrake is on. Double-click the car to release the handbrake.\n"+
"4. Close the Train Operations window.\n\n"+
"To uncouple from a car or locomotive\n"+
"1. Press F9 to open the Train Operations window.\n"+
"2. Double-click a unit in the part of the train you want to uncouple from the locomotive, to set the handbrake.\n"+
"3. Double-click the coupler between the units you want to uncouple and the rest of the train.\n"+
"4. Close the Train Operations window.\n\n"+
"Firing commands (Automatic Fireman OFF in Options screen)\n"+
"To add coal to the firebox\n"+
"1. Press the F key to open the Firebox door.\n"+
"2. Press the R key to increase the shoveling rate.\n\n"+
"To stop adding coal to the fire\n"+
"1. Press SHIFT+R to decrease the shoveling rate.\n"+
"2. Press SHIFT+F to close the firebox door.\n\n"+
"To operate the blower\n"+
"1. Press the N key to increase the blower.\n"+
"2. Press SHIFT+N to decrease the blower.\n\n"+
"To operate the dampers\n"+
"1. Press the M key to open the dampers.\n"+
"2. Press SHIFT+M to close the dampers.\n\n"+
"To inject water into the boiler\n"+
"1. Press the I key to turn on the steam to Injector 1.\n"+
"(You can also press the O key to turn on the steam to Injector 2.)\n"+
"2. Press the K key to increase the water flow to Injector 1.\n"+
"(To increase the water flow to Injector 2, press the L key.)\n\n"+
"To stop boiler water injection\n"+
"1. Press the I key to turn off the steam to Injector 1.\n"+
"2. Press the O key to turn off the steam to Injector 2."
)
)

Mick Clarke
MES/MEP

Hannes44 wrote:I don't have any lists or tables of fuel consumption, but one of my friends was an engineer driving those locos for the railway museum. He assures me, that they had to fill up halfway after about 43 km. (In the good old days when the route had not been truncated to half the original length, anyway) That means, the reserves were about 20%. The rest of the route (now abandoned) was quite challenging. When I arrive at the station in the sim, 43 km from start, the water is about 80% and coal varies between 70% and 80%.

I have constructed a steam and water consumption calculator which allows estimates of the approx steam and water usage of a locomotive over short and long periods of time under fixed operating conditions.

See here -

http://www.coalstonewcastle.com.au/phys ... ater_usage

Refer to the notes on the page for some more information.

If you have driven a 43km length route you will need to determine the average operating conditions to determine the amount of steam and water used for the complete run. OR uses a similar approach as the calculator when calculating usage of these elements.

Try playing with a few of the variable figures (such as speed, throttle, cutoff, etc) to get a feel for how the usages will change as the locomotive moves along the route.

I have used your calculator and the result confirms my suspicions and the information from my friend, the engineer : something is wrong. For the 43 km I should need around 2000-2200l of water. That would empty the tank to about 25% to 30%. On my last run I ended up full with 84%.

Hannes44 wrote:I have used your calculator and the result confirms my suspicions and the information from my friend, the engineer : something is wrong. For the 43 km I should need around 2000-2200l of water. That would empty the tank to about 25% to 30%. On my last run I ended up full with 84%.

To try and identify any issues in the code, we will need to try and clearly define the problem.

So some questions:
i) Is this a freeware model? If so where can it be downloaded from?

ii) What route are you using? Is it also freeware, and if so where is it downloadable from?

iii) During your 43km run, what was the average speed of the locomotive, what average throttle and cutoff settings were used during the run?

Thanks

Thanks!

1) No, it's my own model. I could mail you that.

2) No, it's my own route. In state of development, impossible to mail. There are a few steeper gradients up to 0.22% the rest is more ore less flat up to 0.08%

3) Max speed is 35 kmh mostly around 25 kmh + waiting in stations.

Hannes44 wrote: I could mail you that.

Can you please use the contact page on CTN so that we can establish email communication.

http://www.coalstonewcastle.com.au/contact/

Thanks

systema wrote:Copperpen,

I will gladly let you see a copy of one of my locos. Unfortunately I am about to go holiday right now for about 10 days. File copied below.

Yesterday I lost pressure after about 1.5 hrs. I found I could recover by going into manual firing and increasing the firing rate. After pressure increased I went back into auto fireman. I had to do this a couple of times and then it stabilised?!? This loco was pulling a heavy coal train on Settle Carlisle. I think about 400t. It can only just get up the incline from Settle.

I have also found in activity mode that if I save and restart the pressure and firing is fine as though nothing had happened.

Is it possible to save and restart in timetable mode?


Mick Clarke
MES/MEP

In reverse order

I have no knowledge of timetable mode, the manual should clarify, but I imagine that it should be possible.
Activity restart reset of settings to where they should be has been reported elsewhere. This does indicate some kind of bug in the software causing abnormal things to happen.

Moving on to your eng file, I have used it on three routes so far with a 400T consist and thus far cannot replicate your pressure loss problem. The three routes I used were the Au_CTN OR test route, drove that for three hours, default S&C drove end to end and Renzo's Skipton-Carlisle running from Settle to Carlisle. You are not alone in this problem though as I have had other reports, but thus far, unable to replicate. I will keep on trying though.

Copperpen

Thanks for trying my eng file. Its very strange that I get this problem. It doesn't always happen but when it does, suddenly there is no firing and of course the pressure starts to drop. The only thing I can think of is that I am running OpenRails in Bootcamp on the latest iMac using Windows 10, and its possible its not a perfect platform for running stuff like train simulators. However others have reported similar problems elsewhere. Or, maybe its a memory handling issue, or something in the options set up thats different.

As I say it can easily be recovered by taking temporary manual control of the firing or a save and restart in activity mode.

Mick Clarke
MES/MEP

I have had the problem of running out of steam after some what more than an hour on the Wolgan Valley route. I repeated the run with same consist and the same thing happened. Waiting did not get any more steam.

The consist was a Heisler pulling I THINK around a 100 ton train starting at the oil loading siding at Newnes. So we ran out of steam after over an hour slogging up the 1 in 25 at around 9kph, VERY frustrating I may say. The loco performed perfectly up to it ran out of steam.

If required both the consist and the eng file for the Heisler can be supplied.

Would a screen shot with the physics displayed when steam is lost be a help, I could put one up on ET if required.

Lindsay

zlindku wrote: If required both the consist and the eng file for the Heisler can be supplied.

Would a screen shot with the physics displayed when steam is lost be a help, I could put one up on ET if required.

If the problem is consistently reproducible at approximately the same location, then yes to both would be good. Can you indicate where you got to as well in the route before steam ran out?

A copy of the OR log file would also be good as well.

Did your run use default stock from the route? If not can you provide links.

Did you use a default path or one you constructed? If so, could you provide the path as well.

Thanks