diesel train not moving

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shedbog
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diesel train not moving

Post by shedbog »

Hi,
My first post, so please bear with me
I purchased Paddington to Penzance cd
Everything works fine in msts but, D7013 etc. diesel trains will not move in open rails.
Wonder if there is a fix, patch?
If someone could please help me, I would be indebted
Thanks
Graham
slipperman12
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Re: diesel train not moving

Post by slipperman12 »

Hi Graham,
Welcome to the Forum :)

There's unlikely to be a patch for such an old model, but I'm sure there's a work-around, if you're OK editing files.

As you say, it works OK in MSTS, but that sim will accept all sorts of bad data!! It appears that the braking system has a mish-mash of air- and vacuum-braking parameter values, which have got Open Rails confused; unfortunately, I'm not able to offer any help, but there are many here who can.

Similar problems will probably arise with other old models :(

Cheers,
Ged
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DarwinS
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Re: diesel train not moving

Post by DarwinS »

The brakes were fudged for MSTS. You will need to edit the eng files. The safest way to do this is to make an OpenRails folder inside each diesel loco trainset folder.
Here is an example for a Warship. (D862_Viking_CB)
In the TRAINS>TRAINSET>D862_Viking_CB copy the file D862_Viking_CB.eng
Inside the TRAINS>TRAINSET>D862_Viking_CB folder create a new folder called OpenRails.
Open the Open Rails folder and paste the copy of D862_Viking_CB.eng into it.

Now use Wordpad or Context to open the new eng file. [All of the following work should be done on TRAINS>TRAINSET>D862_Viking_CB>OpenRails>D862_Viking_CB.eng ]

Find and delete the line

BrakeEquipmentType( "Triple_valve, Auxilary_reservoir, Emergency_brake_reservoir" )

Replace this with

BrakeEquipmentType ( Vacuum_brake, Auxilary_reservoir, Handbrake )

Find and delete the section

EmergencyBrakeResMaxPressure( 21 )
TripleValveRatio( 1 )
MaxReleaseRate( 3 )
MaxApplicationRate( 2 )
MaxAuxilaryChargingRate( 3 )
EmergencyResCapacity( 21 )
EmergencyResChargingRate( 3 )
BrakeCylinderPressureForMaxBrakeBrakeForce( 21 )


Replace this with:

MaxHandbrakeForce ( 30kN )
BrakeCylinderPressureForMaxBrakeBrakeForce ( 21inHg )


Further down find and delete all of this section:

AirBrakesAirCompressorPowerRating( 1.2 )
AirBrakesMainMinResAirPressure( 0 )
AirBrakesMainMaxAirPressure( 90 )
AirBrakesMainResVolume( 8 )
AirBrakesAirCompressorWattage( 19000 )
AirBrakesCompressorRestartPressure( 87 )
AirBrakesAirUsedPerPoundsOfBrakePipePressure( 0.22 )
AirBrakesIsCompressorElectricOrMechanical( 1 )

EngineBrakesControllerMinPressureReduction( 1 )
TrainBrakesControllerMinPressureReduction( 1 )
EngineBrakesControllerHasProportionalBrake( 1 )
EngineBrakesProportionalBrakeLag( 1 )
EngineBrakesControllerMaxApplicationRate( 10 )
TrainBrakesControllerMaxApplicationRate( 10 )
EngineBrakesControllerMaxReleaseRate( 5 )
TrainBrakesControllerMaxReleaseRate( 2 )
EngineBrakesControllerEmergencyApplicationRate( 12 )
TrainBrakesControllerEmergencyApplicationRate( 12 )
EngineBrakesControllerMinSystemPressure( 0 )
TrainBrakesControllerMinSystemPressure( 0 )
EngineBrakesControllerMaxSystemPressure( 21 )
TrainBrakesControllerMaxSystemPressure( 21 )
EngineBrakesControllerEmergencyBrakeTimePenalty( 60 )
TrainBrakesControllerEmergencyBrakeTimePenalty( 60 )
EngineBrakesControllerFullServicePressureDrop( 17 )
TrainBrakesControllerFullServicePressureDrop( 17 )


BrakesEngineBrakeType( "Vacuum_single_pipe" )
BrakesTrainBrakeType( "Vacuum_single_pipe" )
BrakesEngineControllers( "Independent, Train, Dynamic" )

EngineBrakesControllerDirectControlExponent( 1 )


and replace it with this

BrakesTrainBrakeType( Vacuum_single_pipe )
ORTSBrakePipeChargingRate ( 0.60 )
TrainBrakesControllerMaxSystemPressure ( 21inHg )
TrainBrakesControllerMinPressureReduction ( 2inHg )


finally find and delete this section

Brake_Engine ( 0 1 0.0125 0
NumNotches ( 1
Notch( 0 1 Dummy )
)
)
Brake_Train ( 0 1 0.025 0.75
NumNotches ( 5
Notch( 0 0 TrainBrakesControllerReleaseStart )
Notch( 0.3 1 TrainBrakesControllerGraduatedSelfLapLimitedHoldingStart )
Notch( 0.85 0 TrainBrakesControllerSuppressionStart )
Notch( 0.9 0 TrainBrakesControllerContinuousServiceStart )
Notch( 0.95 0 TrainBrakesControllerEmergencyStart )
)
)


and replace it with this

Brake_Train ( 0 1 0.15 0.3
NumNotches ( 5
Notch( 0 0 TrainBrakesControllerReleaseStart )
Notch( 0.15 0 TrainBrakesControllerRunningStart )
Notch( 0.3 0 TrainBrakesControllerSelfLapStart )
Notch( 0.45 0 TrainBrakesControllerApplyStart )
Notch( 0.6 0 TrainBrakesControllerEmergencyStart )))


At this point you should have a diesel loco with brakes that work in Open Rails.

There are one or two little tweaks that you can do to get better performance. Because of the way Open Rails calculates braking forces it would be a good idea to edit the MaxBrakeForce to use the following values for Open Rails files.

For Class 21 Baby Warship MaxBrakeForce ( 250kN )
For Class 35 Hymek MaxBrakeForce ( 165kN ) (data from greatwestern.org.uk -Wikipedia entry suggests this should be 284kN!)
For Class 41 (D600) Warship MaxBrakeForce ( 438kN )
For Class 42 and Class 43 Warship MaxBrakeForce ( 175kN )
For Class 52 Western MaxBrakeForce ( 410kN ) (data from greatwestern.org.uk -Wikipedia entry suggests this should be 249kN!)

Also before 1969 the Western Region used 25 in Hg vacuum the same as the former GWR. This can be achieved by changing

TrainBrakesControllerMaxSystemPressure ( 21inHg ) to TrainBrakesControllerMaxSystemPressure ( 25inHg )

Hope this is helpful. Sorry it is a lot of stuff.

 Click to view more informationVacuum Brakes in ORTS [263756 bytes] - Vacuum Brakes in ORTS v1.pdf
File ID: 37593 Date: 19 Jan 2018 - 165 Downloads
is a more detailed guide to vacuum brakes in OpenRails, although it needs to be updated!

If you are still stuck and in need of help feel free to send me a pm.
Regards

Darwin
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Re: diesel train not moving

Post by slipperman12 »

Hi Darwin,
Many thanks for your information :) I feel that I should be more aware of the modifications required for MSTS locos to run in Open Rails!

I have applied your posted parameter values to D7013 but found that as soon as the brakes are applied, they go into emergency! I have modified the section as follows :
Brake_Train ( 0 1 0.025 0.3
NumNotches ( 5
Notch( 0 0 TrainBrakesControllerReleaseStart )
Notch( 0.15 0 TrainBrakesControllerRunningStart )
Notch( 0.3 0 TrainBrakesControllerSelfLapStart )
Notch( 0.45 0 TrainBrakesControllerApplyStart )
Notch( 0.95 0 TrainBrakesControllerEmergencyStart )
)
)
It's still not right, but better than it was!

Also, to avoid a thin "spout" of exhaust, I suggest that their nozzle sizes be changed from 0.04 & 0.05 to 0.1 as follows :
Exhaust1
(
0.55 3.90 2.275
0.20 1 0
0.1
)
Exhaust2
(
-0.40 3.90 2.265
-0.10 1 0
0.1
)
Cheers,
Ged
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shedbog
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Re: diesel train not moving

Post by shedbog »

Thanks Slipperman12 and Ged for your help
Will give it a go tomorrow
Cheers!
Graham
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Re: diesel train not moving

Post by shedbog »

Sorry And Darwin
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DarwinS
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Re: diesel train not moving

Post by DarwinS »

Thanks for that Ged. Exhaust change is good.

For the brake controller, it seems better not to change the controller but to slow down the rate of application.

This can be done using ORTSBrakeServiceTimeFactor ( 30.0 )

I tried to cut a couple of lines above, but clearly some of the advanced lines are needed. :oops:

BrakesTrainBrakeType( Vacuum_single_pipe )
ORTSBrakePipeChargingRate ( 0.60 )
ORTSBrakeServiceTimeFactor ( 30 )
ORTSBrakePipeTimeFactor ( 0.05 )
ORTSBrakeEmergencyTimeFactor ( 10 )
TrainBrakesControllerMaxSystemPressure ( 21inHg )
TrainBrakesControllerMinPressureReduction ( 2inHg )


Works very well together as a block. Then you can use the original controller as intended:

Brake_Train ( 0 1 0.15 0.3
NumNotches ( 5
Notch( 0 0 TrainBrakesControllerReleaseStart )
Notch( 0.15 0 TrainBrakesControllerRunningStart )
Notch( 0.3 0 TrainBrakesControllerSelfLapStart )
Notch( 0.45 0 TrainBrakesControllerApplyStart )
Notch( 0.6 0 TrainBrakesControllerEmergencyStart )))

That is tap the ' key to move to apply, then watch the inHg drop then tap the ; key to move back to lap to hold that level of brake application.
(As on real controller move to apply to decrease vacuum then move back to lap to hold it. Release to release then move to running to hold that.)
Regards

Darwin
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DarwinS
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Re: diesel train not moving

Post by DarwinS »

Looking to check the brake forces, I downloaded a BR diagram book http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocum ... _issue.pdf from Barrowmore Model Railway Group website - an excellent place to get BR technical info if you like that sort of thing.

For Class 21 Baby Warship MaxBrakeForce ( 264kN )
For Class 35 Hymek MaxBrakeForce ( 275kN )
For Class 41 (D600) Warship MaxBrakeForce ( 438kN )
For Class 42 and Class 43 Warship MaxBrakeForce ( 273kN ) There is some variation between different versions but this is approximately correct for all.
For Class 52 Western MaxBrakeForce ( 412kN )

These figures are for Open Rails only - which assumes a coefficient of friction of 0.5 for MSTS values should be 2/5 of these as MSTS uses a coefficient of friction of 0.2.
Regards

Darwin
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Re: diesel train not moving

Post by shedbog »

Hi,
Should have mentioned route
Weston to Paddington
Eventually got it moving with 100% throttle and sander to 8 mph
But loads of wheel slip and slows to a standstill
Thanks
Graham
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stephenrwells
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Re: diesel train not moving

Post by stephenrwells »

Hi Ged, Darwin and Shedbog,

As well as changing the exhaust nozzle sizes a more realistic amount of smoke I suggest changing the Diesel amount of smoke lines under

BrakesEngineBrakeType ( "Vacuum_single_pipe" )
BrakesTrainBrakeType ( "Vacuum_single_pipe" )
BrakesEngineControllers( "Independent, Train, Dynamic" )

EngineBrakesControllerDirectControlExponent( 1 )

MaxDieselLevel ( 730gal )
DieselUsedPerHourAtMaxPower ( 107gal )
DieselUsedPerHourAtIdle ( 7.3gal )

DieselSmokeEffectInitialMagnitude( 2.2 )
DieselSmokeEffectMaxMagnitude( 2.2 )
DieselSmokeEffectInitialSmokeRate( 0.2 )
DieselSmokeEffectMaxSmokeRate( 10 )

to

DieselSmokeEffectInitialMagnitude( 0.3 )
DieselSmokeEffectMaxMagnitude( 0.6 )
DieselSmokeEffectInitialSmokeRate( 0.3 )
DieselSmokeEffectMaxSmokeRate( 0.8 )


If you find Darwin's brake control awkward you could try this which is a bit simpler but still works

Brake_Train ( 0 1 0.05 0.75
NumNotches ( 3
Notch( 0.0 0 TrainBrakesControllerReleaseStart )
Notch( 0.4 0 TrainBrakesControllerRunningStart )
Notch( 0.6 1 TrainBrakesControllerApplyStart )
)
)

The other thing to check is that the engine and the loco use the same braking system - you cannot mix air and vacuum brakes in the same consist.

Hope this helps and that I haven't confused things further,

Stephen
shedbog
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Re: diesel train not moving

Post by shedbog »

Hi everyone,
Thanks so much for all your help!
I thought I was mixed up before but, I know I am now!
Cheers
Graham
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DarwinS
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Re: diesel train not moving

Post by DarwinS »

Hi,
Should have mentioned route
Weston to Paddington
Eventually got it moving with 100% throttle and sander to 8 mph
But loads of wheel slip and slows to a standstill
Thanks
Graham
Definitely still something wrong.

As Stephen suggests you may need to check the stock as well as the loco. I have the route so if it is a consist that came with the route send me the name of the consist and I will have a look at it further.

If it is not a consist that came with the route (CD) then please post a copy of the consist or list of stock.
Regards

Darwin
shedbog
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Re: diesel train not moving

Post by shedbog »

Hi DarwinS,
Have not tried any changes as yet
Printer playing up
Yes mate its off cd
D7013 Weston to Paddington 12-30 service
Don't know name of consist
Thanks again for help
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Re: diesel train not moving

Post by dforrest »

Is it necessary to initialise the brakes with "SHIFT /"?
David
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Re: diesel train not moving

Post by slipperman12 »

Hi,
@Stephen : I don't know where you got your diesel smoke parameters from!! They are nothing like mine, so, to make sure I hadn't previously modified mine, I went back to the CD and unpacked the stock. This is how it's supplied :
DieselSmokeEffectInitialMagnitude( 0.6 )
DieselSmokeEffectMaxMagnitude( 1.0 )
DieselSmokeEffectInitialSmokeRate( 0.2 )
DieselSmokeEffectMaxSmokeRate( 1.0 )
This is not dis-similar to your suggestion and, to me, is perfectly acceptable with a nozzle size of 0.1.

I tried your braking section. In one way, this is better than Martin's suggestion because the braking percentage is displayed each time the ' key is pressed. Thank you.

There are two consists supplied for D7013, le (which, oddly, contains 4 GWR coaches) and 12insulContainers which is 12 x SWB wagons loaded with the 'old-style' furniture containers.
Both consists run up to 60 mph without any problem.

@Graham : The reason you're getting wheel-slippage is because you are trying to advance the throttle too quickly, too soon! Treat it like you're driving a car with gears. There are 8 steps, 13%, 25%,38%, 50%, 63%, 75%, 88%, 100%, each representing one press of the "D" key. With these two relatively light consists, you can increase the throttle quite quickly, up to, say, 50% without slipping, then gradually increase it as speed builds. You'll soon get the 'feel' for it :)

@David : No sir, not with this loco and Martin's suggested parameters. :)

Cheers,
Ged

EDIT : As a matter of interest, D862 Viking, supplied with the same route, has the following diesel smoke parameters :
DieselSmokeEffectInitialMagnitude( 2.2 )
DieselSmokeEffectMaxMagnitude( 5.5 )
DieselSmokeEffectInitialSmokeRate( 10.0 )
DieselSmokeEffectMaxSmokeRate( 100.0 )
which give most peculiar effects in Open Rails and definitely require changing! As a starting point, the revised values for D7013 may be used.
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