Distant mountains again

[bremen]

Hi Bremen,
Just a note,
This is not the place to aim questions at RSDL or RS.com.
I skim read many of the posts and some threads I don't read at all.

OK... next time.

Hey Bremen where did you get hold of that photo of me?

Google is my friend

[bremen]

This is the topic about DM

In discussion with Otto on TS.com regarding the merits or otherwise of increasing the detailed draw distance, I actually sat down and calculated the time it takes to create a relatively straightforward 20 mile route, such as my current Heartbeat Moor project, nothing fancy mostly default and not much in the way of new 3D models - i.e. to "good" freeware standards.

From wiki:

"Draw distance is a computer graphics term, defined as the distance in a three dimensional scene that is still drawn by the rendering engine. Polygons that lie behind the draw distance won't be drawn to the screen.

As the draw distance increases more polygons need to be drawn onto the screen which requires more computing power. This means the graphic quality and realism of the scene will increase as draw distance increases, but the overall performance (frames per second) will decrease. Many games and applications will allow users to manually set the draw distance to balance performance and visuals."

-> For you a "good freeware route" is done by "mostly default and not much in the way of new 3D models" and you complain about draw distance?
With allmost everything already done (3D, trains etc...) it cost money paint a pair of kms more?

My case is different because I'm doing everything by my self, from the ground to the sky and i want a draw distance up to the "maximum allowed by the Programmers of the simulator " because i'm doing the real 1meter gauge alpine route between Locarno and Domodossola and not """something similar with standard gauge, third part 3Ds out of place, in the middle of a desert"
To paint 1000 Square kilometres it costs me no money because i have FUN do what i'm doing and MY goal, in the last 6 years, hasn't changed a bit...

bye

--------
Sacrifice - Victory
No Sacrifice - No Victory

[bigvern]

Good luck with that then.

[jamesh]

Interesting to read everyone's comments and ideas on DM's and I agree it's something that needs to be addressed. I planned to have a go at re-doing some mountain routes for RailWorks but scrapped the idea once the DEM's had been extracted because the distant mountains weren't right. So I put them on the backburner to wait for the issue to be resolved.
Now having said that I obviously want to see the DM issue fixed but I also want to see it done right. I'm not sure that simply extending the draw distance for existing terrain will work the way we want it to work, unless I'm missing something.
Simply extending the draw distance would mean that the existing terrain tiles would now be visible further out, existing terrain tiles being 8X8. A potential 40 KM draw distance would include a lot of terrain information. Now if you're using 10M DEM data that's a lot of detailed terrain information for something the user isn't going to see up close anyway.
Secondly as has already been pointed out that terrain then needs to be painted so it's representative of the terrain you're looking at. If not it's just going to look like one flat colour. As stated the advantage of MSTS (as well as MSFS and other sims) DM's is that they use tile textures so there can be a variety of colour on the terrain.
For example take a route like Kicking Horse Pass in the Canadian Rockies where you're dealing with huge mountains. Down at the base you'd be looking at a similar texture to the actual route, so a green forest type texure/textures. However you then need to look at the middle and upper portions of the mountain where the terrain is going to be very different as it'll transition from forest to rocky to snow covered even in the summer.
I guess what I'm asking or getting at is wouldn't it be better to look at having a separate terrain mesh for DM's that can use lower terrain data and also be worked with separately for texturing? This would reduce the size of the terrain data to be shipped with the route, lower the load on the CPU/GPU and still enhance the look of the route?

Cheers,
James.

[jamesh]

Just contiuing to think aloud here, take a simple 10 mile route with approximately 100 terrain files as is you're looking at 8-10 mb of data. If you extend that draw distance out to 10km from the existing 2km you're looking at 5X the number of tiles, so 50mb's worth of tiles. Now a 40 KM draw distance would equal 200mb of data. Now most routes aren't 10 miles long, especially in North America where you're looking at 100 miles as a start so you'd be looking at 2GB of terrain data.
Now that's not even factoring in routes that will include new scenery objects and terrain textures and so on.

[bigvern]

However they do it James, it absolutely must be accompanied by more efficient terrain texture management systems. Whether that's copy and paste or some sort of tile system I don't care, but as I work through yet another 6 x 1 km strip on my current route, I'm really shaking my head and thinking there has got to be a better way of doing it than this.

Tiles are actually quite effective, for most situations. I just downloaded Braganza Ghats for MSTS and the terrain looks quite satisfactory, to me. Yet I know the author probably put those tiles down in a quarter of the time it would take to do the texturing, RS/RW style.

I'm pushing on with the NYMR/Heartbeat Moor as the terrain texturing and 3D placement is probably 80% done. However I'm already thinking, do I really want to go through this process with a new project?

In some respects the NYMR is an ideal basis as a prototype, as the line runs through a fairly steep sided valley for much of its length, much of it steeply wooded, though that brings the other problem - how to quickly and efficiently plant dense forest cover that doesn't look repetitive through copy and paste and avoiding selecting previous laid items when you have to J the items to the terrain, as some bright spark at Kuju obviously didn't think pasting objects level with the ground was a required function. Anyhow I digress, with that scenario you can get away with generic texture on the fields and plateau above the valley sides as if people are driving from the cab or side view (as they should be) it's not going to be visible. However there will be other situations where you are going to need to put a field pattern in and if it takes an hour to hand paint a basic "swirl" of 3 - 4 textures across that 6km strip, I reckon it would take double that to put in fields. So you can imagine how long it would take to apply detail out to twice the distance, if these people who seem to think it's a flight sim not a train sim get their way. Stuff that!

[Ryosuke]

did you every try out this tool?

http://jkansoft.mine.nu/cgi-bin/jkansof ... o=4&aux3=0

[miglietto]

did you every try out this tool?

http://jkansoft.mine.nu/cgi-bin/jkansof ... o=4&aux3=0

It seems to be an interesting toolset but how does it can help with the lack of Distant Mountains in RW ?


About the implementation of a suitable method to draw DM, it shouldn't be an impossible task.
Just look what is capable to do google earth.
Merely increasing the drawing distance in RW at the actual resolution (8x8 meters) is not the right way to go.

[bigvern]

I had become aware of KRS Tool but the information about what it does and how it achieves the result is not immediately obvious from the site.

For example, will it copy textures from one tile as is (which is what we could do with) with maybe rotation through 90, 180 and 270 degrees for variety?

I believe it can spawn trees but is this done without disturbing existing objects on the tile and at ground level?

It certainly might be worth looking into for a new project but does not negate the need for more efficient built in tools, IMHO.

Anyhow, off to enjoy a bit more Braganza, would be nice to see that route in RW one day.

[jamesh]

However they do it James, it absolutely must be accompanied by more efficient terrain texture management systems. Whether that's copy and paste or some sort of tile system I don't care, but as I work through yet another 6 x 1 km strip on my current route, I'm really shaking my head and thinking there has got to be a better way of doing it than this.

how to quickly and efficiently plant dense forest cover that doesn't look repetitive through copy and paste and avoiding selecting previous laid items when you have to J the items to the terrain, as some bright spark at Kuju obviously didn't think pasting objects level with the ground was a required function.

Hi Vern,
I would agree on the terrain texturing / tile management system and there probably is. I was thinking about it and why not have another texturing ability and that is would basically be the ability to snap a texture to a whole tile in one go, or select multiple tiles and apply that texture, like we did in MSTS. This would allow us to fairly quickly select large areas of a route and texture it, this would be especially important for DM's as well. Once done you could then revert to the texturing system we have now to paint the close in scenery. Personally I love the paint terrain feature but do agree it's not that good for large areas.
Using the current system I have also been trying to build a new terrain texture XML file so when the route is extracted it would use a custom texture as a starting base appropriate for the feel of the route then build the close up scenes. However building the XML file isn't as intuative as I thought it would be.
Thanks for the tip on the J key, had tried to use that feature using the old MSTS H key but when that didn't work I figured it was something that didn't get included. I would agree it would be better to have them reversed and have the shapes snap to terrain and then use the J key to keep them level when you what to keep the depth, ie. turning trees into big bushes.
Ah well for the most part I'm still loving the RE tools that come with RW's and think they show huge potential as long as the tools keep being worked on. Any visions of re-building the Cambrian again Vern?? Minus getting shafted that is.

Cheers,
James.

P.S. Will definitely have to take a look at that program and figure it out.

[bigvern]

Re Cambrian, not likely at present as I tend to be getting obsessed with more "exotic" prototypes. Once my surrealistic alternate reality version of the NYMR, aka Heartbeat Moor, is done I was thinking about doing either part of the Moffat route possibly the "old" road over the top through Needle Eye or further afield I've been really enjoying driving Braganza Ghat in MSTS. The only huge issue in RW would be how to show Dhudsagar Falls. Beyond my 3D ability so probably some sort of backdrop but if the MSTS version is anything to go by the train runs virtually under the waterfall. Extreme!

[bremen]

Hi

Quote the post of jamesh

Just contiuing to think aloud here, take a simple 10 mile route with approximately 100 terrain files as is you're looking at 8-10 mb of data.
Now a 40 KM draw distance would equal 200mb of data. Now most routes aren't 10 miles long, especially in North America where you're looking at 100 miles as a start so you'd be looking at 2GB of terrain data.

If can be usefull....
My "official" route is 52kms long and is based upon 30meters DEMs
In the last 2 years, every now and then to do something different from the next 3D, i have added a piece of track here.. a piece of track there... and in the end I have reached over 300kms divided in 1455 tiles for a total of 91MB.
The whole dir of the route is 158MB.. in a rar only 45mb (without the 3ds of course)

Using the current system I have also been trying to build a new terrain texture XML file so when the route is extracted it would use a custom texture as a starting base appropriate for the feel of the route then build the close up scenes. However building the XML file isn't as intuative as I thought it would be.

My route is based upon a custom BP with custom Terrain textures i have done in the last 2 years... and except for a specific "behaviour" of the terrain texture BP i haven't found other problems. Need a hand?

bye

[bigvern]

But therein lies the problem, 52km route and still building after two years! The average person who ends up driving it isn't going to notice or necessarily appreciate all that detail. If it's your pet project and that's a level of detail you want to attain then fair enough, but working to my system over a 2 year period I would expect to churn out at least 6 routes of that length, working on a basis of 3 - 4 months a route (with time off in between for good behaviour!).

Re custom textures I had thought about doing my own custom set, courtesy of the Mayong site (if it's still there) as I'm quite bored with the default set, definitely need more greens and a few more subtle rock type textures. However I haven't got the first notion of where to start as regards setting them up and writing the xml file (other than making the pattern seamless in PSP7). Maybe there's something in the xml file but again, really, there should be a nice little GUI feature where you can click on RW utilities, say "Hi, I want to add this texture to my custom set" and the programme does it for you.

Methinks maybe one for Mike Simpson to consider as an extension to RW Tools - get your textures cropped, sized and seamless in your chosen paint programme, then RW Tools would convert and write the xml file. I'd certainly make a donation for that.

[jamesh]

My route is based upon a custom BP with custom Terrain textures i have done in the last 2 years... and except for a specific "behaviour" of the terrain texture BP i haven't found other problems. Need a hand?

bye

Hi Bremen a hand would be great. What I'm having trouble with is sorting out the BP editor. I want to keep some of the original Kuju/RW's terrain textures from the Euro and US textures sets, but then I also want to start adding some of my own. But when I try and use the BP editor it tells me it can't locate the original Kuju ACE file. Am I missing something?

Cheers,
James.

[bremen]

But therein lies the problem, 52km route and still building after two years!

1 month to place the tracks and countless days to do the custom 3Ds..
For example: my dear Ruinacci... you really think i can use a 3rd party 3D? Or i have to wait somebody soooo kind to do it for me?
O by the way... from the place of the photo is possible to see the mountains over Locarno... i need DistantMountains

I have done countless 3Ds from may 2004 when the route still was in MSTS and i'll go on doing the same

"The average person who ends up driving it isn't going to notice or necessarily appreciate all that detail."

A simple solution. In my country there are only few person interested in the real route and fewer in my route.. so I'm doing the route for my self and for an half dozen of friends that i know will appreciated the work... no more no less.

Maybe there's something in the xml file but again, really, there should be a nice little GUI feature where you can click on RW utilities, say "Hi, I want to add this texture to my custom set" and the programme does it for you.

The classic "push one button and you'll be the king of the world".... i have a way to create a set of wang tile in less then 5 minutes.. so is not for me.

But when I try and use the BP editor it tells me it can't locate the original Kuju ACE file. Am I missing something?

Because the original Aces are somewhere inside the HDs of KUJU/RSDl. There are some of the .TGA instead.. if you want to convert them in the Ace format
In my case i have done a BP from scratch and in doing so i had to create all the textures from 0 because there isn't a way to use the textures from the basic routes and custom tex at the same time... at least with a new terrain BP. (with a hack inside the bin.. probably..but i never done it so if is possible i don't know)