Are Community Created Routes Important Anymore?

[sniper297]

i think its important to keep RS/RW together,so when routes/scenarios are created they are compatible with both versions,until a more flexible attitude is adopted by RS.com.
the complete abandonment of RS by RS.com is a huge mistake

Different viewpoints, my opinion is that was a wise move and an essential one. Got a 1970 Ford with a lawnmower engine, hard to start and needs a push going downhill with a tailwind to go anywhere at all, can't really consider it a "car" at all. So we get a new car, do we tow the old one behind forever or send it off to the junkyard? IMAO most of the community focuses too heavily on backwards compatibility at the expense of being able to move forward without being slowed down by all the junk we have to drag with us.

what's the point in building a large complex route if it can't function as such!

TESTIFY O my brother, can I get an "AMEN!" from the choir?

An official word that they acknowledge that the signals/AI issue is the weak point of the simulator and that they intend to improve it over time would help

And the TRUTH shall set you FREE, can I get another "AMEN!"?

It takes a long time to produce a route, so route builders can give them time to improve the core software.

There's the rub, I'm stuck, stalled, dead in the water. At the moment I'm killing time by adding eye candy to a route that works within the current limitations, drive a train around admiring the scenery with no AI traffic interaction at all. Current RW beta here;

http://forums.flightsim.com/vbts/showth ... p?t=283362

RS version here;

http://forums.flightsim.com/vbts/showth ... p?t=283351

And that's as far as I can go until I find out (1) are they going to fix the AI traffic, and (2) how? Once I know the HOW I can figure a way to lay the track to work around whatever the parameters are, but to avoid having to tear up and relay the entire mess later, I gotta know the specs before I design the trackwork. Ideally they'll fix it by creating some actual intelligence in the artificial intelligence so all I need to do is add signals that will control both AI and player on the same tracks, but even if they just replace the Artifical Imbecile dispatcher with Matt's Chimpanzee I can figure out a way to set up the tracks to work around the random stabbing by the chimp.

What content creators require is a bit of information on the direction that RS.com wish to take the core software so that they can judge weather the simulator will eventually fulfill what they are attempting to acheive

There you go, all they gotta do is issue a public statement that the AI traffic is what it is, dat's all dey is and dey ain't no mo, I'll move over to Trainz and quit yapping about it.

[dkightley]

Perhaps part of the reason there are few freeware route builders for the RS products is summarised in this thread: http://forums.uktrainsim.com/viewtopic. ... 18&t=92798

I get more and more disillusioned by the repeated back biting and complaining that goes on nowadays on the forums here.

[Sly401]

Hi Geoff... yep absolutey that is what the community should be about, mutual help and encouragement... and perhaps less of trying to influence the developers

Believe anyone will still get help and encouragement, from within, and from the developers. it may be in private form.. simply because everyone is really tired at having to justify every statement.. its immaterial.

Anyone involved in producing freeware should be doing so because they enjoy it... not how much kudos will this bring them (personal opinion )... the kudos will come but surely that is not the driving force ,, is it ?

I won't even take a model on for great money...... if I won't enjoy making it.... and this is my living now.

What either RS or RW does or cannot do is now quite well documented.. build or ceate within the parameters we have and know....... and enjoy it.

Keep up the good work

Sly

[bigvern]

Perhaps part of the reason there are few freeware route builders for the RS products is summarised in this thread: http://forums.uktrainsim.com/viewtopic. ... 18&t=92798

I get more and more disillusioned by the repeated back biting and complaining that goes on nowadays on the forums here.

Hey now just a minute chap. I don't know whether that comment was made with your mod's hat on but this thread here has actually been going in a very good, positive direction. There is an issue with lack of freeware all the way from routes across to locos and rolling stock. This thread is attempting to explore whether RW can function without the freeware component other sims enjoy and, if it can't, what needs to be done both by the community and the official backers of the sim. By posting those sentiments Doug, you have done exactly what people are accused of doing in other threads.

If you want happy smiley all the time then use Railworks America where a halycon Stepford World is the order of the day, where even posting an innocent question about errors with DEM in RS/RW was deemed to be unsupportive. The rest of us would like to debate with a bit of pragmatism, occasionally yes a bit of disagreement but all with the same intention - finding a way to take this sim forward which after nearly two years in existence is still far behind where its predecessors were at the same stage.

[dkightley]

Vern

No, I'm not posting with my mods hat on....I'd use the big red Moderator thingy if I was.

The point I was making was to suggest that other freeware builders may have had a similar experience to one I had myself...ie unprovoked and unwarranted nasty things said to or about them.....either on or off forum. All part of what ...to me...seems like a general undercurrent of mistrust and general unhelpfulness that exists nowadays.

And your "Now hang on a minute chap." comment is a very mild example of what I mean. I passed a comment. Nothing else. I had...and have...no desire or intention to provoke any form of debate or arguement.

There again...perhaps it would be simpler to not post at all.

[Acorncomputer]

Please guys. It makes no sense for two very experienced content creators to be in confict when we should be tapping into the pool of knowledge and creating something really good.

[growler37]

Hi
We all want RS/RW to go forward and be succesful,i think everyones agreed on that,and that can happen! with community support,one of the great things about RS was that the developers were active members of this and other forums, i,m sorry but i cant belive that they dont post as much now because of mud slinging,my hunch is it is a commercial decision and lets face it ,its entirely up to them who they speak to,but take MSTS, it is were it is because of the community,if that can be achieved without developer support just think what could be done with it, in RS/RW, the product needs the community,but the community needs the product as well ,were all singing from the same hymn sheet,there will be akward questions asked sometimes,as long as everyone minds there manners and is polite thats fine,because maybe somone in the community might be able to help fix things,its got to be a partnership RS/RW is a community product ,otherwise why include a route creation, kit and a host of other goodies,along with enough paperwork to sink a battleship.
there are a lot of routes in the building atm,myself have got two on the go!i will continue route building come what may,but it would be a lot better if community and developer worked closely together to reach what is the same goal,working together is much more productive than,a few retreating into the corner .
Regards
Kevin

[growler37]

Please guys. It makes no sense for two very experienced content creators to be in confict when we should be tapping into the pool of knowledge and creating something really good.

your right Geoff
Two train sim icons,we need you both now more than ever!
Regards
Kevin

[Billiam]

Hello,

I think for what it's worth that RS.com are intrested in freeware as much as payware, otherwise why add the tools and documents to the release?
How far they are willing to hold our hands thats a different matter, some need it more than others and while I could do with some help from time to time I'm happy to pick my way through the tears and tantrums and go at my own speed.
Some of the work been done by users is exceptional and they inspire me like the modellers magazines do.

edit, i think Kevin beat me too it.

Thanks

Bill

[paulz6]

Perhaps part of the reason there are few freeware route builders for the RS products is summarised in this thread: http://forums.uktrainsim.com/viewtopic. ... 18&t=92798

I get more and more disillusioned by the repeated back biting and complaining that goes on nowadays on the forums here.

Doug,

This particular thread does not summarise it up for me at all. The reaction seems to be very positive!

In fact, the screenshots show just how good RS/RW is at laying accurate track work, so it does raise the question why people are still starting new routes on MSTS, with which the skewed north and fixed track sections do not allow for that level of accuracy.

It makes me even more positive about what the community could acheive, for example, getting together and deciding to model the Woodhead in it's hey day with all the complicated trackwork and numerous yards and sorting sidings, located in stunning scenery.

[sniper297]

"part of the reason there are few freeware route builders for the RS products is summarised in this thread:"

I'm lost, how does "Please don't ask why" summarise anything?

"repeated back biting and complaining that goes on nowadays"

Matter of perspective, I just don't see it. I grew up on the west side of Chicago, and four years ago I moved up to this little tank town (they call it a "city" but population 25,000 gimmee a break) in Wisconsin. I LOVE it here, nice and quiet and peaceful and the scenery is gorgeous. Couple months ago two guys got in a fight at one of the local bars ("pub") and the cops arrested both of them. No guns, knives, brass knucks, or bazookas were involved, but the neighbors still haven't stopped talking about how horrible it was, and how this used to be such a good neighborhood. To me it was no big deal, one minor fistfight in four years, but not having the experiences I had in Chicago they view it from a different perspective.

I honestly do not see either train-sim.com or this forum being as horrible as some people say it is.

"halycon Stepford World", good description, Vern.

[bigvern]

I think most freeware builders have suffered from lack of feedback about their work and in some cases (including my infamous event in 2005) even get quite a mauling. I certainly don't see any negative sentiments expressed in the thread Doug references though, possibly the only thought people may have aired is how is a yard that size going to run on my PC!

It goes with the territory, I probably had half a dozen emails in total regarding my two RS routes plus a few comments on the forums but it doesn't honestly bother me now. However I can see the other side of the coin that some have opted out or decided to do 100% payware. Everyones circumstances are different, in my case I think my contract with NR rules out having a second income and there would be a huge conflict of interests if I was credited on a British route - how do I prove the info hasn't been lifted from the NR Portal or On-line sectional appendix? That's one of the reasons why I'm reluctant to even do freeware UK and prefer overseas or fictional routes. Just in case anyone is looking - the data for my Far North route was externally sourced!!

[Acorncomputer]

Detailed routes are hard work and take a great deal of research.

I think short detailed routes are fine but I have come to conclusion that a longish route is going to be better as a fictional one. The building time would probably be half that of a detailed route and if several people were working on it, as long as there was a design format to work to, content creators could use their own imagination for various sections of the route.

As long as the track, signals and other prototypical matters were adhered to throughout the route, I think most users would not mind if the route they were running was not a real one.

Some thoughts.

[qzdcg8]

It makes me even more positive about what the community could acheive, for example, getting together and deciding to model the Woodhead in it's hey day with all the complicated trackwork and numerous yards and sorting sidings, located in stunning scenery.

Didn't think I did a bad job back then...

Just read this thread with interest .. and here's what I think has changed - when we all started out in 2001/2002 there was NOTHING else out there to compare against - so ANYTHING could be attempted and any results were taken with gratitude - and so it built up to the magnificent comemrcial SVR and SE routes with the freeware TM and DC routes (plus numerous others). Bespoke model making was EASY with 3D Canvas and TSM and the engine builders also had the whole world to shoot at (like the Route Builders) as it too was a complete blank (apart from a rubbish Scotsman and Tim Booth's 47 - remember that one?)

Then along came RS (which I have never been part of BTW) and so I believe it was a case of "we've done it once - its got to be done all over again" - and I believe that the lack of the original Trail Blazing Spirit of MSTS was and is just not there and that is why the Community Side will sadly NEVER be quite the same again IMHO.

If someone could have EVOLVED/FIXED MSTS with COMPLETE backward compatibility... ...all that collateral would have been waiting to take on a new life...

Just my take on things... from the outside.

[Acorncomputer]

So a RW/RS version of Settle/Carlisle is a No No then?