Are Community Created Routes Important Anymore?

[gnash]

then maybe they should be considering more packs - residential/commercial/industrial buildings and clutter, more water features, river lofts, docks etc. Would give their artists something to do and could be sold over Steam for the usual £4 to £5.

Quite possibly true , and at those prices packs would be relativly inexpensive , problem as I see it would be the number of packs to be purchased , if RW or others do indeed start to supply such packs and a builder decides to use an item or two from half a dozen ( or more ) packs , it starts to look a tad expensive . Assuming longevity for RW , 18months from now new users attracted to the game could be in for surprise if items flagged as needed for a particular route run to fourty or more dollars pounds or whatever

In conclusion, to survive and grow RW needs both community and commercial content,

On this we both aggree , but I still don't believe help will be forthcoming ... too many chopsticks , too many I's .

.

[growler37]

Hi i think community created routes are vital,this is how skills are learned,like most route builders,i started off with a short fictional route,then got a bit more ambitious,then West Somerset was created.
Now i am 2 months into my West Cornwall 1950,s project,with skills learned,i,m hoping it will be completed by november,almost half the time that West Somerset took.
theres little doubt that the loco modellers are the glamour boys of the train sim world an accolade they richly deserve,were as, the route builders will always be the foot soldiers,because route creating in RS/RW is a slog! true,the editor is a breeze,and very user friendly,but the scenery placement is very wearysome,this is why some routes are released with all the track placed, but sparse scenery,maybe thats a way forward,routes could be released with the track and landscape already created,as this is the easy bit! then the user populates it with scenery,i think it could work! it could be a sort of "library of rails" yes it does sound familiar,but imho much more realistic way of getting prototype freeware routes out in the community quite quickly,also the users who by addmision on the closed MSTS2 forum admitted that scenery was not important to them,but the ability to drive on accurate routes was,would be happy,this also opens up the possibility of much longer routes.
Regards
Kevin

[Acorncomputer]

I like the idea of 'route building by numbers'. That could work.

Some good posts and well thought out ideas.

Community created routes are welcomed by the community but the relatively few created for Rail Simulator in the UKTS library and the single minded marketing approach of RS.com with RailWorks, has had the effect of splintering existing content creators into RS and RW groups and there is no real incentive for new creators or experienced MSTS creators to start.

If content is created and placed in the library then people will use it. No problem and generally those people are pleased with what they have received for just about nothing.

As far as being important to users then the situation must be divided. YES community created routes are important to the community but NO they are not important to the mass market.
The lack of support from RS.com for the community and their positive actions against the community, such as pulling the Developer Tools for RS, leads me to the conclusion that there will be less and less community content created and this is not the fault of UKTS or other community sites around the World.

I am not a natural pessimist, just look back on my posts over the last 18 months for RS, but I think this is not good and it is in the hands of RS.com to actively recognise the community sites and encourage freeware creation. It should be in their interests in the long run.

[growler37]

Hi
Geoff,some good points there,i think its important to keep RS/RW together,so when routes/scenarios are created they are compatible with both versions,until a more flexible attitude is adopted by RS.com.
the complete abandonment of RS by RS.com is a huge mistake,at the least they could have kept the RS web site with its contents ,forums ,etc and created a new site for Railworks,i feel RS has a lot more milage in it,and that Railworks as a new product wasnt needed,the railworks tweeks and content could have been put in patch,these are only my feelings but the majority of the community seems to be thinking along the same lines,also i dont think its all RS.com,s fault,probably Steam call a lot of the shots now,sorry i,m drifting off subject.
The jury is still out on my oppinion of RW atm,i,m lucky i have all the programs that i need to create routes for both versions which is what i intend to do!what is a great shame is that RS.com seem to have alienated some of there most loyal and active content creators, and have driven a wedge between users who are basicly using the same product.
Regards
Kevin

[Neptune50006]

"Are Community Created Routes Important Anymore?"

Yes.

Unlike MSTS however, I think what we will see from the community are more fictional and short routes. I don't think we'll see the likes of a Mid East or Dorset Coast in RS/RW. As has already been said, it's amount of work now needed to create an accurate prototypical route that puts people off. Unfortunately there hasn't been the migration of route builders from MSTS to RS/RW that was hoped. A lot of RS/RW routes are started with good intention and then soon abandoned after the track is laid.

Personally I also feel that there is still a doubt over the long term future of RS/RW. If the well documented bugs are not fixed users will gradually fade away and the sim will diminish in popularity until RS.com have to call it a day.

[Acorncomputer]

Why are RS.com so stubborn in embracing the wealth of talent available in the communities?

[Neptune50006]

Why are RS.com so stubborn in embracing the wealth of talent available in the communities?

I think the guys at RS.com are pretty talented themselves. There just seems to be something missing in the QC and marketing dept's

[boleyd]

Just a question -- if signals and AI have some problems does this inhibit development of active routes?

[Sly401]

Hi Geoff

"Why are RS so stubborn at recognising the community " ?

I'm afraid the community had recognitition, didn't do a whole lot with it, abused or at least took for granted the developer involvement, and recently culminated with mud slinging and stamping of feet.

So it appears they got out of here and other places.

Not stubborn at all, just a realisation that practically all that comes out of the forums is a myriad of opinions, that have been progessively getting more robust.

Maybe they have decided that .. OK in that case we will make lots of content ourselves... which of course will have to be paid for.

No good moaning that they are not listening to you...... I am sure they are, bu will only take note of the pieces that they think are of use.... what they are not doing is getting involved face to face..

Of course there have been some notable exceptions that have produced some excellent assets /content ... but they are the exceptions.

Mabe as time goes on, and perhaps commercial developers produce some stuff then some more of the community will roll their sleeves up and get thier hands dirty...... lots of quality freeware will make commercial development unsustainable... but all the time "the community" is losing ground.

There is an undisputed need for more assets / content and if the community is not producing it, then commercial operations will move in as there is a market.


So who is stubborn ? I think that it is the community that has an elemet of stubborness....
Not wanting to accept that this is the way the developers are do things... STEAM being a prime example...

You may want it just the way it has always been... but if that is unsustainable you will get developers pulling out... a'la TS2 maybe. Then you wll be left with nothing (as with PC games market in general )
Meantime expressing opinions (fair enough) but too robustly does nothing more than dig a hole for yourselves..

Not baiting... but the community does need to realise where it stands right now... produce some goods then you may get some of the recognition you seek.

Have fun all

Sly

[bigvern]

Just a question -- if signals and AI have some problems does this inhibit development of active routes?

Possibly and this is a debate seen I think on some of the American forums. There are those who are happy with the Rascal & Cottonwood expanded Kalmbach track plan genre while others want accurate main lines with large yards where you can make up trains while the AI does clever things around you.

I also think the sheer work involved setting up and testing scenarios with multiple trains, more often than not ending in "Scenario Failed To Load" errors after two hours putting discs on trains is a downer - what's the point in building a large complex route if it can't function as such!

A lot of RS/RW routes are started with good intention and then soon abandoned after the track is laid.

Been there done that quite a few times recently, except now it's retreated to getting the Google markers done and thinking, "Ah stuff it, too much work!"

[stephenholmes]

Hi Geoff

"Why are RS so stubborn at recognising the community " ?

I'm afraid the community had recognitition, didn't do a whole lot with it, abused or at least took for granted the developer involvement, and recently culminated with mud slinging and stamping of feet.

So it appears they got out of here and other places.

Not stubborn at all, just a realisation that practically all that comes out of the forums is a myriad of opinions, that have been progessively getting more robust.

Maybe they have decided that .. OK in that case we will make lots of content ourselves... which of course will have to be paid for.

No good moaning that they are not listening to you...... I am sure they are, bu will only take note of the pieces that they think are of use.... what they are not doing is getting involved face to face..

Of course there have been some notable exceptions that have produced some excellent assets /content ... but they are the exceptions.

Mabe as time goes on, and perhaps commercial developers produce some stuff then some more of the community will roll their sleeves up and get thier hands dirty...... lots of quality freeware will make commercial development unsustainable... but all the time "the community" is losing ground.

There is an undisputed need for more assets / content and if the community is not producing it, then commercial operations will move in as there is a market.


So who is stubborn ? I think that it is the community that has an elemet of stubborness....
Not wanting to accept that this is the way the developers are do things... STEAM being a prime example...

You may want it just the way it has always been... but if that is unsustainable you will get developers pulling out... a'la TS2 maybe. Then you wll be left with nothing (as with PC games market in general )
Meantime expressing opinions (fair enough) but too robustly does nothing more than dig a hole for yourselves..

Not baiting... but the community does need to realise where it stands right now... produce some goods then you may get some of the recognition you seek.

Have fun all

Sly

Hello Everyone
I do think you are being a little unfair with your comments Sly
Geoff has produced 2 freeware routes for Rail Simulator, one has been released the other nearing completion.
Yes it is the developers prerogative the method of distribution they choose etc.
We want to try and work together and I mean that most sincerely arguing amongst ourselves won't change anything.
However I believe that for what ever reason some developers will continue developing for RS until RW is opened up further ....If it ever is?
It would be nice for a developer to say here is our product, here is the source code, now go and see what you can do with it.
Wishful thinking maybe?
I wish you well and may you continue to enjoy RW
Kind regards Stephen

[paulz6]

Just a question -- if signals and AI have some problems does this inhibit development of active routes?

I think the answer is a bit more complex than that. It seems to me that the signal/AI issue it stopping a large section of the community from embracing RW, which in turn is having a knock on effect on the content creators willing to product content for it. MSTS content still dominate the download charts on this site.
An official word that they acknowledge that the signals/AI issue is the weak point of the simulator and that they intend to improve it over time would help. It takes a long time to produce a route, so route builders can give them time to improve the core software.
It looks like there is a lot of new official content in the wings which is great for the game players. What content creators require is a bit of information on the direction that RS.com wish to take the core software so that they can judge weather the simulator will eventually fulfill what they are attempting to acheive.
I'm hoping that once they have ironed out the issues regarding the RW release, that they can start to engage us more on this issue.

[Acorncomputer]

RS.com have shown just how ruthless they can be.
Rail Simulator became a non-entity to them overnight .. cut dead in a stroke

I just want some better assurances that RailWorks will not get the same treatment.

[Sly401]

Hi Stephen

I did say that there were exceptions but they are a minority.. and my comments were certainly not aimed at any individual.

I was merely responding to the claim that RS were stubborn and not listening.

As for releasing the source code... done that "steelworks shunter" I released everything I had and even included the model source in various formats.. nobody is interested

Not unfair on the comunity.. sometimes the truth hurts, but needs to be accepted otherwise you fall behind..

I really hope that standing by principals, and impersonating King Canute doesn't get in the way ... but each to their own

---------------------

Geoff .. Rail Sim is not abandoned, hence the backward compatability... more like this bus is going to ..... and some decided to get off.. . fair enough but your choice.

Nothing has been taken from you if your release , the game etc etc were all great in december then it is still exactly the same now....

I think raising the issue of stubborness was a bad move

Not getting at you Geoff, have fun and enjoy what you have and I hope one day you can reconcile your differences with your objectjections.

Cheers

Sly



Sly

[Acorncomputer]

Hi Paul

I am not going anywhere and perhaps things will change to enable me to catch up.

You may not realise it, but you were actually a great inspiration to me. Without your help with your sign kit, it may have been a bit more difficult for me to get going with 3D Canvas. If I remember rightly you would only help to a certain degree and then you said something like 'find out the rest yourself' which I did. This enabled me to get to grips a bit with 3D Canvas with some content for The Big Layout and for the Spa Valley I have created 40 or 50 bespoke models, I have not counted recently.

That was a great example of the community pulling together for the benefit of all.