Atomic Systems

hi, i had posted this in the masive bugs thread, there is a lot of discussion going on in that thread so worried rail sim team could miss my post so posting again here,

i find the brakes on the class 37 are way too good, braking starts at 30% and at 30-31% i find the train is brought to a stop way too quickly even on a 1 in 50 downhill gradient, surely a bug, is this one being addressed?

cheers

Gav

BTW: is there no forum at the rail sim site anymore? if so is this the new official railworks forum?

Gav,

Have you reported this to support@railsimulator.com? That might be the best way of ensuring they know about it as with them not posting on here it's hard to know whether they read these threads or not.

I don't think this is the new official RailWorks forum, but it's still a good place to come for help and info!

Andy L

AndyUK wrote: I don't think this is the new official RailWorks forum
Andy L

I can confirm that UKTS IS NOT the new official RailWorks forum, but as Andy said, its still a good place to come for help and info.

As part of my research, I just tried the 37 on the SDJR route, first with twelve Mk1 and then with ten Mk2 carriages. (The Mk1s are vacuum braked, and the Mk2s are air braked, the 37 being a dual-braked loco.)

While the brake handle is very difficult to control (I haven't got myself a RailDriver unit yet), the brakes themselves seem to work fairly normally, at least with reference to other locos hauling similar stock in RailWorks. Also as expected, the vacuum brakes are a lot weaker than the air brakes, which is one of the reasons air brakes are preferred these days.

May I ask which stock you were trying to haul?

hi i just did a test i had a 37 blue with ploughs six mk2 carraiges climbed the hill heading towards templecombe, descending the otherside doing 60mph i set the brakes to 30%, basically the minimum amount of braking pressure i can apply, and the train began to slow down, not fast a drop in speed about .2mph per second, i thought this rate of deceleration would be what id expect with this pressure on level track, i would expect this amount of braking pressure on a downward slope to slow the trains acceleration, more pressure needed to keep the train at a constant speed.

on approach to shepton mallet there is a short uphill, 1 in 55, here the train slowed a lot faster, stopping before the top of the short climb, with this little braking pressure applied i would imagine there wouldnt be enough pressure to hold the train so would have expected to roll backwards once stopped but the train stood fast.

to me the braking i was getting i would have thought would be good for about 50%

would appreciate if anoyone could try this experiment and let me know what you think

cheers

Gav

EDIT: 30% of braking gives 15lb/in of pressure, seems quite a step from nothing

ever tried multi applications (Jockying) the brake controller as in real life the brakes never left in one position till the trains at a complete stand still.

I have driven using a vaccum break on a 03 (real life) on a steep incline and it slows down very well had a 3 mk1's and a steam engine on the back. Talking to a EWS driver he said he prefers vaccum to air.

GavNormandale wrote: ....would appreciate if anoyone could try this experiment and let me know what you think.....

Gav,

Can't help at the moment because I don't have RailWorks, but have you tried substituting a Class 47 or Deltic for the 37 and repeating your tests? It's probably easier if you use a Full Service application in each case rather than trying to get partial applications the same for each run. If the 37 hauled train stops much quicker than the other one then it could be the 37 brakes need some tweaking.

I seem to remember most agreeing that the stopping distances in RailSim were reasonably accurate. Have they changed much in RailWorks?

Andy L

AndyUK wrote:

GavNormandale wrote: ....would appreciate if anoyone could try this experiment and let me know what you think.....

Gav,

Can't help at the moment because I don't have RailWorks, but have you tried substituting a Class 47 or Deltic for the 37 and repeating your tests? It's probably easier if you use a Full Service application in each case rather than trying to get partial applications the same for each run. If the 37 hauled train stops much quicker than the other one then it could be the 37 brakes need some tweaking.

I seem to remember most agreeing that the stopping distances in RailSim were reasonably accurate. Have they changed much in RailWorks?

Andy L

hi, seems i was wrong, all 3 are behaving in the same way 37 47 and the deltic, still dont think its right though, minimum brake application 15 lb/in, just like going downhill in a car you apply a little brake pressure to stop your car from picking up speed but not slow down, id imagine the same in a train, brakes arnt just for stopping!

cheers

Gav

I suspect that the main problem there is with the brake controller, rather than the brakes themselves. Notice that the brake cylinder pressure rises to maximum with less than half of the brake handle's travel, even with a graduated-release brake, or even in vacuum-brake mode on the 37, or even(!) on the Class 166 DMU.

Does anyone know if the 166 is supposed to have EP brakes? The combined power/brake controller suggests that it should, which would make such coarse brake control even less forgivable.

Kromaatikse wrote:I suspect that the main problem there is with the brake controller, rather than the brakes themselves. Notice that the brake cylinder pressure rises to maximum with less than half of the brake handle's travel, even with a graduated-release brake, or even in vacuum-brake mode on the 37, or even(!) on the Class 166 DMU.

Does anyone know if the 166 is supposed to have EP brakes? The combined power/brake controller suggests that it should, which would make such coarse brake control even less forgivable.

Class 166s have three step Westcode brake control. The default behaviour actually provides TOO much variation in brake setting. Reading this thread I wonder if people are getting too carried away with car driving comparisons - you can't just "tickle" the brakes on a train, they have a "minimum application" which ensures the control valves on the wagons "set" properly. Also you shouldn't quote the percentages indicated on the F5 "hud", they are meaningless as all they indicate is the percentage travel of the brake handle through its animation arc. As you seem to be "accuracy fans" I suggest you do it as a real driver does - by looking at the pressure change on the brake pipe gauge.

Actually most real drivers don't look at the gauges and controls at all

Good post though Dave

davveb wrote:Class 166s have three step Westcode brake control.

I thought so. That means EP brakes with a 2-bit train wire control, which allows 3 levels of service braking and an 'off' position (which is also common to all of the Pacer and Sprinter family, and many of the British EMUs). The Emergency position on the handle is the only one that opens a brake pipe valve.

It's pretty clear that the '1', '2' and 'Full Service' positions correspond to distinct levels of braking. In terms of the existing "handle percentages", these would correspond to notches at 25%, 50%, 75% (with 100% reserved for the Emergency notch). But in RW, the braking reaches full strength at about 45% with any of the "graduated release" brake handles. This strongly contributes to the perception of the 166's brakes as being "weak", since it's very difficult in RW to select much less than full brake-cylinder pressure, and there's no way to slow down more quickly than that. This is yet another thing that BVE seems to get right.

All of this is in complete contrast to the normal "self lapping" handle used on vacuum-braked DMUs (such as the old 101) and most American locomotives. This does give control over the whole range of possible brake pipe pressures, even though (for the Americans) normal service only needs a fraction of it.

Kromaatikse wrote:All of this is in complete contrast to the normal "self lapping" handle used on vacuum-braked DMUs (such as the old 101)

For the sake of accuracy the quick-release vacuum brake on the "heritage" DMUs was not salf lapping. The driver's brake valve had a lap position into which it had to be placed to hold the desired train pipe vacuum.

Andy L

Oh dear, I'm getting confused with holding the entire railway industry in my head at once.

But going back to the original topic of the thread, the 37 has a standard BR self-lapping brake controller, which is different from the ones used on American railways in that it only controls down to the Full Service level, except for the Emergency position.