Atomic Systems

Quite honestly, I think there has been far too much "unqualified" hype on this forum about Steam. I found the whole experience first class, except for the discount .-up, not caused by them, and the whole installaton process went like a dream.

Acorncomputer wrote:I believe that Rail Simulator.com are not interested in community created content ... discuss!

(This is not aimed at Derek and the team who are clearly passionate about their work and my comments in no way reflect on these admirable guys).

And can you really say this Geoff, as for me, Derek and the guys in the brown stuff, are Rail Simulator.com, or certainly thier representatives, and without a creative community, then there will be no Rail Simulator.com.

And yes, it is a lovely evening, so back to shed building!

Acorncomputer wrote: I believe that Rail Simulator.com are not interested in community created content ... discuss!

I don't think this is the case at all. They are probably assuming that no body will have issues with their steam account being disabled.

The choice of steam is likely because they want a less problematic way of providing a continuous stream of updates, and don't want their time wasted by people not applying patches in the right order. There was a potential problem here with patches and official free downloadable content.

Of course, they could develop their own automated distribution platform, but that wouldn't be commercially viable for this niche retail product.

There is an issue with modifying default files. I've got a lot of experience working on configurable products. Companies can spend millions updating customised products. This is not desirable in a retail market. The trick is to allow a product to be configurable without modifying default files. They've obviously got some work to do regarding sound packs, but they have done a good job of this in many areas.

Hi,

I have read and I am still reading of the problems and concerns of the many, not the few that has been implied.
It would benefit all to have the whole affair clarified once and for all by the people at RailSimulator, or who ever they are calling themselves.
I for one join those who have voiced their opinion of not to buy RailWorks on the grounds that have been expressed.
I still have RailSimulator and enough Assets and Content to keep me going for the foreseeable future.

Regards
Mike

stephenholmes wrote:

paulz6 wrote:
Hello Paul
If customers do not accept the t&Cs then they go without?
Well all I can say there is, if there were no customers prepared to accept the T&Cs then the company would cease trading.
Kind regards Stephen

viva la revolution

it's like in real life. If you need the whole society you will be lost
on the other side it is also a question of law. you never be the holder of the software only the user. ther is a significant difference what do you think to buy and what you own.

read you...
Michael

Acorncomputer wrote:One final comment before I spend a pleasant evening in the sun instead of in front of a computer (who cheered)

I believe that Rail Simulator.com are not interested in community created content ... discuss!

(This is not aimed at Derek and the team who are clearly passionate about their work and my comments in no way reflect on these admirable guys).

Maybe worthy of a separate topic on its own?

I don't necessarily think it's totally the case now but I certainly still hold the view that when Kuju first set up RS, it was done with the technically minded and quite possibly payware developer in mind. Everything from the Blueprint system, to Developer folders - having to dabble with xml, bin and lua files to get stuff in there. I really think they were of the opinion all these payware designers were going to be queuing up, parting with their £1000 licence fee (look how quickly that evaporated!) and supplying their own models and terrain textures.

Cue (largely) the tumbleweeds.

I would hope by now that RS.com or whatever they are called this week have realised the community and particularly the freeware side could be their key asset in expanding the sim beyond a few quick sales on Steam of the basic product. Though of course to that end, although I haven't purchased Railworks it seems from other posts the route builders' lot is pretty much still the same. Still the need to faff about with blueprints for everything, the (I'm sure) promised combined UK/US texture set hasn't materialised so you still effectively have the US and UK version running separately in the sim. Snarky remarks on the tech's blogs regarding comments I and some others have made about applying terrain textures in RS - hardly the way to encourage the small number of route builders who have some interest in developing for RS/RS-Reworks.

With additional freeware content to populate routes still thin on the ground, the golden opportunity was missed to consolidate the IOW route, Class 66, Class 158 and foliage pack into Railworks thus supplying 95% of the extra material we are using as default content. Ah, no doubt they will be looking to sell RW tweaked versions of these on Steam at £15 a time...

Acorncomputer wrote:I have noticed that many of the comments about Steam have come from content developers like myself. Perhaps we see the problem differently to people who like to just use the simulation. We often spend hundreds of hours creating content and Rail Simulator and UKTS made it enjoyable and efficient to do. I cannot really speak for other developers but there is a fine line here about whether committing such time is now going to be worth it when there is external control about whether the program will run or not.

OH NO! karma99 in a Steam related thread... RUUUUUUUN!
You'll be pleased to hear, it's my last post on the subject

It's spooky coincedence that you posted this Geoff at the exact time I was walking to the railway station from work and the thoughts were beginning to form in my mind along the exact same line.
As secure as I'm sure Valve make Steam, there really is a danger here from whatever sources that an online account can be stolen. Now I work in web development so maybe I have a peculiar view on this, but I'm well aware of how this stuff happens and the also of the groups who dedicate their time to hacking these "holy grails". Not to mention my own PC being compromised... but, if you use virus protection and firewalls you're secure, Pete!
Sorry, dream on! As with locking your car, deadlocking it, having an alarm.. it can still be stolen. You can minimise the risks, but you're never totally secure - if you don't believe this, do some research on the Conflicker worm. If someone had "activated" it the result could have been devestating after the number of systems it infected - some of you reading this right now probably have it anyway. Sounds like media hype and panic-mongering.. yeah I thought that too until our entire network at work got it!
Anyway, I digress! The bottom line is.. accounts/servers get hacked. It's an unavoidable fact of modern IT. It's the same deal as people getting their house burgled. It's infrequent and the chance of it being you is very very small, but it happens none the less.

So here I sit, considering whether I want to risk (however small that risk is) hundreds or more likely thousands of hours of content production on a game that I could be unable to use through no fault of my own if I'm unlucky enough to be in that tiny minority.
And that's my issue with all this. If I was just a "player" I'd probably not worry, much as I'd miss Railworks if something went wrong I'd find other things to do. But to lose the platform on which thousands of hours of time have been spent.. it's got to be a no thanks from me.
If Steam gave me enough of a benefit to outweigh the perceived risk then that's a different set of circumstances to weigh up and a different decision maybe. But Steam does NOTHING for me.
Sorry to all those who swear by it. You can talk about ease of updates, not having to store a DVD somewhere, and all the other things that Steam does so very well.. but I see none of those as a benefit to ME. None of those are enough of a sweetener to outweigh the downside.

The option to run it offline for ever doesn't seem very appealing either, as potentially we'll still need to go online for the updates (and let's be honest, RW is only RS+ right now.. it's the ongoing work that's going to make it something special in future).

The anger that's prevelant at the moment around here is due to the announcement from the railsimulator.com website (whoever was in charge at the time is rather irrelevant) that Steam would not be compulsary. If something that important changes, maybe they'd have been better telling people rather than leaving it for us to discover when reading the small print?
Irrelevant of intent, that kind of things breeds suspicion, and in this case anger as well.

So there it is. I've had my say, and I'm done.
If Steam on the DVD goes bye bye then more wagons will emerge from Swindon, the Q1 I've been secretly beavering away on will roll forth from it's shed, and I'm sure plenty of other requests will reach my minimally skilled ears too
If it's too late to change.. or if RSC aren't that fussed, then I guess that's an end to it.
I've REALLY enjoyed creating for RS. It's been a fantastic experience, I've learnt lots and met a ton of really great people on UKTS.
I know I'm not exactly important around here (I'm no Kev Martin, BigVern, Decapod, Geoff, Stephen, M1ckran, G0fthick, Sly and all the other skilled producers whose names I can't recall right now) but you can list me as a casualty of Steam anyway.

I'm just not prepared to go into the future making content for a platform that just might stop working one day completely outside of my control.
It's a risk that doesn't need to exist.

You can now respond happily with "you're a jerk", "stop living in the past", "Steam will never get hacked", "Steam/Valve will never go down", "Thank goodness, your models sucked anyway", and all the other lovely things I'm sure are being thought

karma99,
A good post is that.

I wish to make another point, what happens when a person has to give up the internet,
that will be happening with me sooner rather than later and then RW is of no use to me.

Please dont say I can continue to play the sim, thats only guesswork, RW requires validating every
3 months or maybe sooner, the way things are at the moment anything could change as has happened.

At this moment my mind is still open but looking like I wont purchase, at least untill RW makes a comment about the DVD situation,
if it is not good then no sale to me.

dipper6 wrote:karma99,
A good post is that.

I wish to make another point, what happens when a person has to give up the internet,
that will be happening with me sooner rather than later and then RW is of no use to me.

Please dont say I can continue to play the sim, thats only guesswork, RW requires validating every
3 months or maybe sooner, the way things are at the moment anything could change as has happened.

At this moment my mind is still open but looking like I wont purchase, at least untill RW makes a comment about the DVD situation,
if it is not good then no sale to me.

Got a 56k Modem? if so then that'll do if you're only vailidating installs / etc... Although if on validation a download is needed then it would indeed be a pain. Basically what I'm saying is that you don't need super dooper fast broadband to use Steam or other online validation methods.

"Steam/Valve will never go down"

Never say never!

No one thought the banks would need bailing out by the Government, that car makers like GM would be going to the wall or that M$ were so hard up they would cancel TS2 for the second time.

The only hope would be if Steam did go belly up there would be an indefinite unlock on any titles you might own or require verification via that method.

If Steam ever does go down I'd expect RSDL to step in and fix the game so as to not use Steam anymore. However, worst case scenario is both Valve and RSDL going under...If RSDL ever get close to a point of collapse I'd hope one of their last things to do would be to release the game from Steam that way the game lives on.

Not that I hate Steam, as long as it functions and everything is good then I'm fine. Honestly, I've had a credit card # stolen twice and both times the crooks got the number from a brick and mortar store, not from online shopping (fingers crossed).

Interesting arguments from all sides, but I still like Steam and have made the informed choice, but I do see it from the other side and hope we get the other option, because its always wise to have more than just a Plan A.

Matt

To be honest, if they did decide to go down the route of "no Steam" on the dvd then I would be willing to take advantage of the trade up offer on the dvd version as well as having a copy of the download. As it stands, I have heard people tell me that they are planning to take a copy of the dvd as well but at the moment it seems as though there is little point due to the concept being so similar.

If anyone is wondering why I would take a "non steam" dvd version as well as the download, well, nobody has the guaranteed financial security of always having the internet.

bigvern wrote:

"Steam/Valve will never go down"

Never say never!

No one thought the banks would need bailing out by the Government, that car makers like GM would be going to the wall or that M$ were so hard up they would cancel TS2 for the second time.

The only hope would be if Steam did go belly up there would be an indefinite unlock on any titles you might own or require verification via that method.

Apparently Valve have said if in that unlikely event that is exactly what they would do.

As too comparing the other badly run businesses with Valve / Steam is a bit over the top really.

The Banks needed help because of their over extending themselves with risky lending pratices for the last 10 years and their reliance on interbank funding which had collapsed.

GM has been unprofitable for years and was not prepared to make the hard choices to fix their business model.

MS didnt cancel TS2 because it was hard up, it still made Billions of dollars last year ( just like every year ). It was cancelled because Aces made it self a easy target at a time of staff freezes versus its need to grow ( and Microsofts need to show that it was being prudent ) . TS2 was just collateral damage.

John

Humm, interesting posts.

One issue that seems to be paramount (and one of my annoyances) is the issue of DRM.

However, may I ask how many people here, like myself purchased and downloaded the JustTrains version of the class 08 and Cajon Pass Addon?

Did you know that it installs a Windows Service called “Just Flight Limited Licence Service”?

On my system, I also have a Windows Service called “LicCtrl Service” which appeared after installing an RS addon (don’t know which).

May I also point out that nether of them was removed when I uninstalled all my addons for RS before uninstalling RS itself?

I am far more troubled by being left on my PC than having to have some client software installed that requires me to activate a game. Which is exactly what Steam is. If you purchase a DVD, then you get content installed, you sign up and the content is made available for you to play. Yes, you require an Internet connection to do so, yet that does not seem to be stopping people from uploading content, downloading from UKTS or posting here.

Steam does not care what the RailWorks folder contains. You should be able to modify any files you want with the exception of the executables and any files that future patches released by RS.com changes.

Steam does not prevent you from installing RailWorks on another PC. You CAN use the same account as you have on another PC, just don’t try and log into the Steam servers at the same time another PC is logged in. Any games on Steam are tied to your account, not to the PC.

As far as I am aware, Steam does not install DRM drivers or Windows Services silently. It’s just the client software. And, as long as the game does not require an internet connection to play, you can play offline for as long as you want.

Yes, it is possible for your Steam account to get hacked, just as it’s possible for your UKTS account to get hacked. Don’t choose an obvious password, use a pass phrase instead. I once got an email asking for my Steam password, I emailed support and within half an hour, they emailed back saying that they had not sent the email and to be on the safe side, I had to reset my password. Nobody from Valve/Steam will ever ask for your password. If you get an email asking for it, delete it or tell support.

You can back up RailWorks to a second drive, DVDs, whatever. As long as you back up, you won’t loose any content you create. Indeed I have tested deleting the RailWorks folder and restoring it from backup. No problems what so ever. Steam did not try any download anything.

I’m sorry if this post may come across as a little confrontational. It’s not that I disagree with people’s opinions, only that I hate it when people make opinions that are not based on facts. When all is said and done, feel free to stop doing something you enjoy, but do so understanding the issues, not the half understood Chinese whispers or bias of others. Including myself, if you want.

Yours sincerely,

Shadders.

Hi

I have started a new topic on Steam and third party Licences. It is relevant to this topic but is a bit more specific on the licence situation.

http://forums.uktrainsim.com/viewtopic. ... 14&t=95330

Well I hope RS.com are able to have the DVD behave as the original RS one, even if viewed from a customer service point of view and there does seem to be a demand for it. Also, wasn't it stated that if demand was there RS.com would provide alternative updates for those who don't like Steam, even if delayed?

Matt